No tax credits for the third child. Does that mean some women will never be able to work?

[HowFurloughCanYouGo]

I just wondered if someone could explain it to me. I realise I'm being a bit thick.

Imagine someone who is still on tax credits, not UC. They have 5 children, 3 of which were born after the 3rd child cut off date for tax credits.

Single mum and she wants to go to work for the first time since the first child was born (this is a completely fictional person by the way).
If they don't have tax credits for the third fourth and fifth child, does that mean she wouldn't be able to work? Because she wouldn't have money for childcare?

How does that work?

I want the population to drop so I'm ok with a 1 or 2 child policy, but a lot of people thought China was inhuman to limit families like that. I've been saying for a while that if we're going to do it we should do it properly. If you prevent any family having more than 2 then you avoid the child having to suffer as that what it typically comes down to.

There is rather a substantial difference between this two child policy and the Chinese one though lasttrain. I'm hopeful that most people who feel the UK two child tax UC limit isn't inhumane believe that the line has been crossed somewhere between there and forced abortions in the eighth month of pregnancy, for example.

sorry but if you can afford 3 children let alone 5 I would just guess you had worked out the cost of doing that some time ago?

I am a single mum, work full time, have 2 children and no other income and these kinds of questions just make me question everything in my life. (like - really?? does the Government actually give you money to have kids?
sorry if this sounds judge pants but I never ever realised that was actually a thing).

You weren't aware that child benefit, child tax credits and extra UC payments for children were a thing until now bubblebu? Do you live in the UK?

There is rather a substantial difference between this two child policy and the Chinese one though lasttrain. I'm hopeful that most people who feel the UK two child tax UC limit isn't inhumane believe that the line has been crossed somewhere between there and forced abortions in the eighth month of pregnancy, for example.

I don't believe that the government should dictate how many children people are allowed to have and I am also deeply uncomfortable with benefits policies which are intended to dissuade people from having more children than they can afford but end up penalising the children of the irresponsible parents who have them anyway.

I'd like people to take responsibility for their own families and try not to be an unnecessary burden on the taxpayer or the planet by having more children than they should. But clearly a lot of people will never take responsibility.

I honestly don't know what the answer is.

@Bubblebu o can only imagine you live somewhere outside of the Uk when wages vs cost of living is very different. I work 25 hours a week and my wage doesn't even cover my rent and council tax. Without tax credits and child benefit we'd be hungry and on the streets

I don't about you but I don't spend £70 a week on my second child every week
Child element is less than £70 but yes I spend more than £70 a week per child averaged out. Food including school meals £30
Hobbies £25
Clothes/shoes including uniform £10
Holidays averaged £20
School bus pass £12
Christmas /birthdays including party £20
Random money for school averaged £2
Pocket money £5
Days out 10
Hair cuts £2 averaged
Toys/books etc £5

Total £140 a week so more than double the child element .
That’s without extra water, utilities , bigger car, bigger mortgage and miscellaneous items
@Chockablok

Not sure about childcare but I know 2 single moms with 5 and 6 dc and they both manage to work part time.
They have family helping out for childcare. Without family help they couldnt work.

Whatever the answer is pepere, it definitely doesn't involve the sort of atrocities that have been perpetrated in China.

The irony is that it really isn't difficult to create a situation where most women don't have more than a couple of children anyway. China are actually experiencing this now, having relaxed the one child policy and finding that urban women are taking advantage of it in much lower numbers than expected. You wouldn't think it to read some of the discourse on the subject, but not many women in the UK have more than two children these days and it's a really small minority having more than three.

@AldiAisleOfCrap

Okay you are clearly very well off.

Probably above middle class I would say, £1000 per year on presents per child and £1000 per year on holidays per child and £1300 on hobbies 😱

No judgment, good for you... but I think it's slightly disingenuous to complain that basic benefits, "safety nets" as we've been calling them on this thread, should ever be intended to prop up that kind of lifestyle long term.

I am well, well out of the tax credit system and that's not a kind of lifestyle I can relate to. I don't buy my children toys every week for a start. (Or £260 per child if you've averaged out). They get the odd treat but that's mostly what birthdays are for.

The fictional person should not be expecting others to pick up the bill for her choice to have five children. Didn't realise you didn't get the childcare element for a third child. Entitled much.

This will just turn into a condemnation of those who have large families and find themselves in hard times. Obviously things like being widowed or being made redundant never happen to nice middle class mumsnet posters. Everyone who needs tax credit support and has more than two children is automatically a feckless old slapper

Not really. If you have children and you fall on hard times, that's one thing. But you can't complain about not getting tax credits if you had a 3rd child and beyond after the rules changed. And they gave 10 months + notice of the changes at the time, so people weren't pregnant and having it sprung on them.

If you have two children now, you know exactly what the rules on tax credits and child benefits are. So make your decisions about having more children while in full possession of the facts.

I don't believe that the government should dictate how many children people are allowed to have and I am also deeply uncomfortable with benefits policies which are intended to dissuade people from having more children than they can afford but end up penalising the children of the irresponsible parents who have them anyway

Penalising the children would be refusing them NHS care and access to state education and libraries. Refusing their parents extra benefits is not penalising them.

And if the government can dictate whether you can go out to see friends in the name of the greater good, then it certainly can "nudge" people into keeping their families to a responsible size.

I worked full time as a lone parent to 5 children without tax credits.

It means you shouldn't have 3 kids unless you can afford to raise them.

There’s a lesson to be learned here somewhere. Could it perhaps be that people should only have as many kids as they can afford?

@Chockablok
Our household income is high yes, however we have several children .
I don’t buy my dc toys every week , I buy books either physical or kindle very regularly plus audible books. Toys aside from Christmas /birthdays would be things like garden play equipment or a souvenir in a gift shop.
Hobbies include the cost of equipment/costumes etc and are higher than average I agree.
The other costs I would imagine to be fairly typical.
The two child limit was political , very little money is saved if any once you have factored in the additional costs to other services, and children are suffering for it.

Everyone who needs tax credit support and has more than two children is automatically a feckless old slapper

If you fall on hard times now, it's UC. Tax credits are a legacy benefit which will be phased out. And the limit applies to children born after 1 April 2017 so anyone who has over 2 now should be aware that the safety net is limited now.

The fictional person would have known she would not get any help with the 3 children born after the cut of date and would have planned how she would afford them, wouldnt she? Or has the fictional person recently separated from a partner who is refusing to help look after or support the children financially? She could work school hours once the youngest starts school or work nights and see if family or the father can watch the children? Some employers have that childcare voucher scheme.

In the scheme of total benefits the state gives under 18s a gentle limit on universal credit is quite modest. It is perfectly reasonable to nudge people away from procreating beyond their means or the planets natural resources.

“ Does that mean some women will never be able to work?”

From the title of this blog.

Having lots of children doesn’t preclude you from work. Many families have relatives looking after their children, or you work different hours to Dp. In our situation, Dp used to come home, and then an hour later I’d go to an evening job. Or Dp has children at weekend, and fictional mum works Saturday and Sunday.

Lots of options if you don’t put obstacles in the way.

I think you can still claim the childcare element OP. Ignore the horrible comments- people really have no idea

“I don't believe that the government should dictate how many children people are allowed to have “.

The government doesn’t dictate how many children you have. You can have as many as you want. However, just don’t expect the state to subsidise larger families. If you want more children, then be responsible for them.

PubsClubsMinistryOfSound

Oh yes I really do live in the UK and have done all my life. It is just I was raised to understand that you earn to pay for things.

But it is ok.

In the current UK coronavirus climate I am FAST catching up and realising (like you have long long before me) that actually I do not need to work to earn a living or pay for my children.

Sorry yes I really am that thick!!

The government doesn’t dictate how many children you have. You can have as many as you want. However, just don’t expect the state to subsidise larger families. If you want more children, then be responsible for them.

Did you read the rest of my post, out of interest?

PS I have 2 children and have always paid for them myself and have never (UNTIL NOW!!) claimed any benefits.

But yes Pubs - I do feel really really stupid that I have not cottoned onto the fact before now that the government will pay me money if I have children.