No tax credits for the third child. Does that mean some women will never be able to work?

[HowFurloughCanYouGo]

I just wondered if someone could explain it to me. I realise I'm being a bit thick.

Imagine someone who is still on tax credits, not UC. They have 5 children, 3 of which were born after the 3rd child cut off date for tax credits.

Single mum and she wants to go to work for the first time since the first child was born (this is a completely fictional person by the way).
If they don't have tax credits for the third fourth and fifth child, does that mean she wouldn't be able to work? Because she wouldn't have money for childcare?

How does that work?

finding a job that pays enough

And how would she do that?

A lot of high paying jobs involve a lot of responsibility. This could include nights away working late etc.

Maybe she should become an escort?

You can't claim for a third child - the maximum you can get per week is just over £200.

You could ask the relevant department.

The only people I know in this situation (5 kids with younger ones all under school aged) don’t claim benefits (or any unearned income) for religious reasons. They tend to be working professionals (both parents working) and have grandparents to help with childcare.

I don't think working would be an option as a single parent of 5 fairly young children (am assuming older dc are primary school age). I've got 5 dc although mine are older. With 5 dc there is usually an appointment/illness/parents evening/certificate presentation most weeks. Also paid childcare for 3 full time and 2 wrap around care would be hugely expensive, even with help from tax credits.

Could the person get help with childcare through their works voucher system.

Its hardly odd that OP would assume this fictional person is female, since women are more likely than men to be out of the workforce due to childcare costs and practicalities.

I'd imagine if there are five, the oldest one or two are probably in school by the time the eldest is born, at least. You do have to have either multiples or very small gaps to have more than two and none eligible for free hours at 3 as well. Fictional woman could also access tax free childcare if earning over the personal allowance.

She could work, only if a family member or friend could look after the children for free or for a drink.

Possibly work part time when the youngest is in nursery under the funded hours scheme.

It would be tough.

We get help with childcare for #3. He's the only one we pay childcare for and we seem to get something?

It's the same amount for 2 or more children. So there is no extra for a third child:

With the childcare element, you can get help with up to 70% of your childcare costs.

The table below shows how much you could get in the 2020-21 tax year:

Number of children
If you pay up to: You could get up to:
1 £175 a week £122.50 a week
2 or more £300 a week £210 a week
If you pay more than this for childcare, you will still only get the maximum amounts listed above.

If you qualify for the childcare element, you won’t necessarily get the full amounts.

How much you get will depend on:

your income.
the hours you work.
your childcare costs.

The rules are very clear. Don't have children you can't afford.

Surely it's something that was looked into before ttc?

You are Kerry Katona and I claim my five pounds

I see the idea of the deserving poor is alive and well on mumsnet.

The level of economic illiteracy in the UK is a gift to those who wish to benefit by exploiting you. National accounts don't work like household accounts; austerity was a political decision, not a necessity.

Can't even be bothered to have an argument about this today, will just shake my head and walk away now.

I imagine the only way she could return to work is if she had extremely helpful parents that she could use as childcare.

"If you plan and can afford to have five children I assume that you are in a well paid job and can afford childcare."

Or you were when you had them and then CV19 happened and you''re out of work, company closed down etc. Will previously middle class parents be told they should have used contraception?

And did anyone consider what happens to blended families who had 2 each?

Should you be able to send the surplus child back or hand it in to an adoption center?

I want the population to drop so I'm ok with a 1 or 2 child policy, but a lot of people thought China was inhuman to limit families like that. I've been saying for a while that if we're going to do it we should do it properly. If you prevent any family having more than 2 then you avoid the child having to suffer as that what it typically comes down to.

Not sure if this is really a fictional person or you are just saying that as you feel awkward.
Anyway, could she work a weekend job/bank staff on the weekends when the children will be with their dads? Won’t all children get free childcare at age 2 if she isn’t working? She won’t be out of work for long.
Granted it will be very tricky trying to find a job that suits, but not impossible x

Can’t the dad look after them while you work?

Yes of course she can work, she just needs to be able to pay for her own offspring and not expect tax payers to.

It doesn't work, but it makes the sort of people who get all excited at the idea of making the lives of others harder happy. Endless studies were done showing that savings to the state would be minimal and far outweighed by the hardship and barriers the policy would cause, but they ploughed ahead knowing that because there's a certain type of person who really gets off on being able to do the "well don't have children you can't afford" thing.

They would have to move onto UC because there circumstances changed. Then they would get the child element for only the first two children (except in certain circumstances), but would still be able to claim childcare (but only up to the childcare cap, although some of this or all of it can be for child 3 or 4 or 5). These children would still get nursery funding (15 or 30 hours). Because the amount for childcare (I think it's about £200 a week for all the children) isn't really enough until these hours kick in at age 3, single parents are not asked to find work until their youngest child reaches 3. Therefore either this single parent would have to earn enough to cover childcare, or stay at home and claim benefits, or work part time and get topped up.

You can still get child benefit for subsequent children, and they are still entitled to all the other government assistance like free prescriptions and healthcare (under 18), funded nursery hours, free school meals, etc.

You don't get the child element -TC for 3rd or more children but you still get WTC and childcare so in many circumstances they might be better off working than not. I can't imagine bringing up 5 dc on benefits and 2 dc tax credits alone

That's not true @AnotherMurkyDay I started work in January and remained on tax credits. DWP do try hard to make you believe it's the case though

She will get childcare help even with tax credits so yes she can work. Also realistically at least 3 of those kids may well be in school and nursery once they go back so she could try working those hours which minimises her childcare expense.

Alternatively she can do what me and dh do and work opposite hours.

@HowFurloughCanYouGo I have 3. 3rd is nearly 2 and was born after the cut off. We do get childcare element for him though, so either your income is too high to qualify or you/they have misunderstood something.