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To be very concerned that Boris Johnson said this

404 replies

Worriedmum54321 · 30/04/2020 21:35

From the Guardian:
Responding to the argument that a more stringent lockdown should have been imposed sooner, he said: “Don’t forget, it’s a very very demanding thing to ask a population to do – very tough – and so I think it was completely right to make our period of lockdown coincide as far as possible with the peak of the epidemic.”

Hmm
OP posts:
Thread gallery
11
chomalungma · 01/05/2020 15:18

Again, no. There was that little issue of trying not to overwhelm the NHS, remember

Well - you are the one who talked about the chicken pox parties, people should just get infected, they are going to get infected anyway - so let's just get it over with.

Which is an argument. Yes, it would overwhelm the NHS, lots of people would die, including many non Covid-19 patients, but it would get the immunity we need.

But we didn't want to go down that route. Because we didn't want to overwhelm the NHS.

So as I said, it will be interesting to see the risk assessment they did for mass gatherings and how they justified it.

Stifledlife · 01/05/2020 15:19

Hindsight is, indeed a wonderful thing, and it's nice to know that Karen from accounts and Dave down the pub know more than the epidemiologists, geneticists and other people who study this for a living.

It's all very well to say "they should have more PPE" or we should be testing more, but do you really think that if PPE and reagents were to be had that the government would have said "nah.. make 'em sweat a bit longer" before procuring it?

Just occasionally it might be a good exercise to think that possibly there may be things going on behind the scenes that we don't know about.. that perhaps the government DID seek help and that the options they had with a country as densely populated and with such a dynamic and huge itinerant population flying through it's ports daily, were all pretty unpalatable?

This thing isn't over yet. We don't know how the next act will play out. There is no kiddies guide for how to manage a pandemic, and everyone around the world is winging it. It may be that there is a right way and a wrong way to best manage it but we will only be able to learn that with hindsight, when it's over.

So well done Rishi Sunak for his compassionate job saving measures. Well done Matt Hancock for the sleepless nights frantically trying to acquire what we need when the whole rest of the world needs them too.
Well done to Boris and Dominic Raab and all the others who have to face bitching and criticism every day without biting back. Well done to all those who stand at the briefing every day as the same unanswerable questions are put to them by journalists who are all looking for their 15 minutes of fame or their "Gotcha" moment.. and thank God we don't have Donald Trump in charge.

Snorkelface · 01/05/2020 15:25

But it wasn't just events that were crowded. The Mayor of London wrongly reduced transport services before people had stopped going into work as much, the key workers had to get to work. The overcrowding was awful. This was done without government support and later criticised by the government and Sadiq Khan was found to be at fault in the follow up. Hundreds of thousands of people were subjected to that, including transport workers and key workers. Unlike Cheltenham which no one needed to attend, many people did and still do need to use the transport system to get to work, including key workers. London already had the highest figures when this happened.

chomalungma · 01/05/2020 15:25

It's all very well to say "they should have more PPE" or we should be testing more, but do you really think that if PPE and reagents were to be had that the government would have said "nah.. make 'em sweat a bit longer" before procuring it

If only the Government had carried out an exercise on global pandemics a few years ago and identified some of the problems?

If only we lived in a country with a good biosciences industry - and the Government didn't ignore their offers to help with testing early on?

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/03/31/public-health-england-ignored-offers-testing-help-amid-mounting/

www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2020/apr/26/doctor-sue-results-operation-cygnus

chomalungma · 01/05/2020 15:31

This was done without government support and later criticised by the government and Sadiq Khan was found to be at fault in the follow up

The pictures of people on the Tube looked awful. How much of that was down to staff self isolating so a proper service couldn't be run, as well as the guidelines on who should go to work?

Effective testing could have got more workers who were self isolating back to working on the underground.

Proper guidelines on who should have used the service and who needed to go to work would also have helped.

Humphriescushion · 01/05/2020 15:39

My point about the high deaths rate in hospital was also just the coronavirus deaths, not the other deaths which will be even highher.

The government almost bragging about the nhs not being overwhelmed almost makes me mad when they say it! we needed more people in hosptials ( covid and non covid)

Showing graph with so much capacity when the death rate is high.
I realise it is a balancing act but seems to be strongly to not have too many in hosptial at all costs l.e deaths.

chomalungma · 01/05/2020 16:06

Interesting

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8277143/Coronavirus-Fresh-SAGE-evidence-ministers-set-unveiled.html

And the top comment.

surrey mummy, surrey, 5 hours ago

Whether he did or he didn't now is not the time to be nit picking and destroying confidence further in Boris and his team. Even if it was too little too late I doubt anyone else could have done a better job. If the Chinese government had been honest in the outset in 2019 we would not be in this mess. Boris is the only PM with first hand experience of how it feels to be gripped by COVID 19. Now is the time to find the safest way forward and if lockdown is to continue so be it. It would help if everyone followed the rules. Young, old, rich, poor and everyone in between. No one is exempt!

Worriedmum54321 · 01/05/2020 16:06

My OP was really about the fact that the statement made it appear that Boris Johnson doesn't understand the effect of the lockdown on the timing of the peak of the epidemic. (This is an objective fact and is not difficult to grasp - it is obvious to anyone who thinks about it).

Another thing that was obvious from the start was that if applying no control measures, we would probably end up with around half a million deaths. You don't need a complicated model for that - just an estimate of the death rate (1%) and the population size (60 million) and the proportion who might be expected to catch the virus (80%). This is why is is false to claim that the imperial college study was what changed the governments minds - that piece of information was nothing new. What the study gave us what some estimate of the different effects of applying various lock down measures. Really though, as anyone who's done any modelling will happily tell you, models are usually wrong to some extent, and this one in particular made loads of assumptions that are not backed up by science - simply because the virus was new and we did not have access to the relevant facts at that point.

There are lots of different factors that might affect the decision on when to impose the lockdown, what measures to take and when to release them, which need to be debated at length by those in charge. There aren't any easy answers.

I guess one thing that has begun to worry me is that by delaying lock down and allowing more spread of the virus throughout the population, it made lockdown disproportionately less effective for the some of the most vulnerable than it would have been if it had been applied say 2 weeks earlier.
This is because many vulnerable people can't lockdown effectively. Those in care homes, hospices, hospitals, those with regular carers visiting their homes, those needing help from family with daily activities, those needing to attend hospitals or GPs for regular treatments. These people continue to be as risk even though the rest of us are locked down, because a later lockdown meant that even though these vulnerable people probably hadn't been to the pub/school/cheltenham races themselves recently, some of their carers probably had.
Furthermore, because the young and healthy are now mostly isolated, they are not getting infected and therefore are not contributing to herd immunity. So it is possible that lockdown applied quite late actually makes the most vulnerable more at risk - because they are the ones who cannot isolate and therefore are bearing the brunt of the spread of infection.

OP posts:
Roussette · 01/05/2020 16:07

Anyone who thinks Cheltenham Festival didn't spread the virus has their head in the sand. The South West is doing well case-wise but NOT in Cheltenham and Gloucestershire.
OS data map shows GL52 had the highest number of Covid-19 hospital admissions in Gloucestershire, followed by GL51, which houses Cheltenham Spa Railway Station. According to Government data there have been 972 cases of coronavirus in Gloucesteshire and 147 deaths, far more than anywhere else in SW England
A top scientist has said the Festival may well have accelerated the spread.
There are celebs and press people who attended who caught the virus.
The Irish Racing Club has said that if it had been in Ireland they would not have held it.

We had the sense not to go like we normally do.

Worriedmum54321 · 01/05/2020 16:09

we needed more people in hosptials ( covid and non covid)
yes - according to people I know in local hospitals, they are very careful about letting people in, once someone's in ICU they could be there for 10 days or more taking up a bed

OP posts:
chomalungma · 01/05/2020 16:13

Advice given to SAGE on public gatherings - just the behavioural insights.

March 12th

assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/874289/13-spi-b-insights-on-public-gatherings-1.pdf

“Expectations of how the Government will react will be set by media reports of public health strategies in other countries. This increases the risk of public concern if interventions that are perceived to be effective are not applied. A clear explanation as to why expected interventions are not being implemented may be necessary. Data from the Department of Health and Social Care [DHSC] weekly polling suggest that this may be particularly true for banning mass gatherings

Acting in a way that does not meet expectations poses a risk that a section of the public will view Government actions as incompetent or not in the public’s best interests. It may also be taken as signifying that the situation is not expected to be severe for the UK. This could have knock-on implications for public attitudes to other recommendations made by Government.

ollowing yesterday’s decision by COBR, the two questions many members of the public have are: 1.“Will reducing my social contacts limit my risk” and 2.“Why is the Government not recommending specific social distancing measures when other countries are.” Both are legitimate questions. With regards to the first, the answer from both modelling reports circulated on 12 March appears to be “yes.” Government should therefore communicate this, and help members of the public make rational decisions to manage their personal risk. While there may be concerns about the sustainability of adherence for difficult behaviours such as entering isolation for weeks or months, it is not clear that these concerns apply to the specific context of making day-to-day adjustments to reduce social contact. We are concerned that our comments about the difficulty of maintaining behaviours should not be used as a reason for not communicating with the public about the efficacy of the behaviours.

With regards to the second question, SPI-B has pointed out repeatedly that trust will be lostin sections of the public if measures witnessed in other countries are not adopted in the UK and that not pursuing such routes needs to be well explained. Communications is not within SPI-B’s remit, but this point bears repeating again.

Worriedmum54321 · 01/05/2020 16:35

That's interesting, thanks @chomalungma.

From a quick scan through a few of the documents, they seem to be focused on reducing the "peak" of the epidemic. I thought we had now moved away from that strategy. It seems that Boris Johnson is getting confused between the naturally occurring peak referred to in these documents, and the artificial peak that we have just had as a result of lockdown

OP posts:
Sostenueto · 01/05/2020 16:40

Thanks **10:11LakieLadyxx

MeganBacon · 01/05/2020 17:00

“Don’t forget, it’s a very very demanding thing to ask a population to do – very tough – and so I think it was completely right to make our period of lockdown coincide as far as possible with the peak of the epidemic.”

My first assumption here OP is that he just got his ideas mixed in the heat of battle. Happens to me all the time, I have a lag when presenting sometimes between opening my mouth and connecting multiple data points/facts, even ones I know only too well. It only happens when I have the stress of lots of people looking at me (which I hate). I would assume it's nothing more sinister than that.

B1rdbra1n · 01/05/2020 17:03

Boris Johnson is getting confused between
or exploiting the ambiguity to give him more get-outs

EmeraldShamrock · 01/05/2020 17:35

Are the 739 death's in the UK today including care home or residential deaths.
So many families mourning. Sad

Focusanddetermination · 01/05/2020 17:46

739 does not sound like we are past the peak

Guylan · 01/05/2020 17:52

There are graphs on the FT website (not behind a paywall) that show lockdown after 3 daily deaths were recorded. Italy day 11, UK 7, France/Italy/Germany 4/5/6 (can't quite tell from the graph which is which). It really doesn't look like we locked down much later.

@MeganBacon, I linked earlier in this thread an article and tables showing the timing of various lockdown measures by various European countries. UK was on almost most measures the last, although only a day later than Italy and France for one measure. Also it has to be remembered that these countries were further along the curve than the UK and there were experts from these countries warning the UK to not make the mistake they did by not shutting down earlier. UK govt squandered this. Probably as until the Imperial College report came out on 16 March their policy was herd immunity and then it took them another week to bring in the final significant lockdown measure.

To be very concerned that Boris Johnson said this
To be very concerned that Boris Johnson said this
Guylan · 01/05/2020 17:54

Boris Johnson is getting confused between

or exploiting the ambiguity to give him more get-outs

@B1rdbra1n, agree the latter most likely..it’s all smoke and mirrors

Ponoka7 · 01/05/2020 17:54

Re tje Cheltenham rases, the pub landlord, close to the rases died from Covid.

Here in Liverpool we have wanted tracing done to see if the Madrid vs Liverpool match going ahead brought more of it into our city.

We have adults in Alderhey children's hospital because we are at capacity. We never got our new hospital and the Royal Liverpool isn't fit for purpose. We need answers before they let matches go ahead even if they are going to be played in isolation.

wintertravel1980 · 01/05/2020 18:01

739 does not sound like we are past the peak

Based on hospital numbers, we are very clearly past the peak. Worth noting that London peaked/plateaued on April 4th (which means that R0 in London has fallen below 1 prior to the formal lockdown). The rest of the country peaked on April 8th.

Community and care home deaths are important but because they are reported with a significant time lag, it does not make sense to use reported daily numbers to assess the current level of transmission/timing of the peak.

Guylan · 01/05/2020 18:05

This tweet shows this highly qualified and esteemed scientist, Sir Paul Nurse, shared on Question Time last night that in his view the UK govt has failed in its duty to protect its citizens and in his view is responsible for many thousands of deaths. I am sure there will be some other experts who may disagree but he isn’t a lone voice in the field thinking the UK govt have made an utter hash of it.

twitter.com/bonn1egreer/status/1255994035887640581?s=21

To be very concerned that Boris Johnson said this
wintertravel1980 · 01/05/2020 18:09

Probably as until the Imperial College report came out on 16 March their policy was herd immunity and then it took them another week to bring in the final significant lockdown measure.

Based on behavioural science, people are more likely to comply with stringent measures if they are introduced gradually. I agree the government started working towards the formal lockdown right after the Imperial report (March 16) and gave us a week to get used to the idea.

Again, worth noting that at least for London self-imposed social distancing measures rolled out prior to March 23/24 seemed to have created an earlier peak. Another alternative is that R0 started falling because a material percentage of London population (15%?) has already been infected and developed antibodies to the virus. I guess we will know when we see the results of the random antibody tests that are meant to be happening now.

Womanlywiles · 01/05/2020 19:18

Here is an interesting article comparing the response in Washington State (biggest metro, Seattle) which had the first known COVID-19 cases and New York State (NYC) which also had cases appear around the same time.

I was in Seattle and stunned at the complacency in the UK for weeks. Shocking.

www.newyorker.com/magazine/2020/05/04/seattles-leaders-let-scientists-take-the-lead-new-yorks-did-not