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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Where do people think money comes from?

383 replies

MrsBlobbyOnLockdown · 19/04/2020 20:37

Everyday we are hearing pay the NHS an extra 30% pay them £26 per day extra is the latest one.

I’m not disputing they deserve it of course they do & if we had an endless supply of money it’s the first place it should go.

But seriously, where do people think all this money is coming from?

What are your thoughts

OP posts:
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Devlesko · 22/04/2020 18:25

It's numbers with zeros added on the end, it doesn't exist. not something I've ever got worked up about.
It might as well be a phone number for the difference it makes.

Alsohuman · 22/04/2020 19:42

There you go @BubblesBuddy. Yes, I was incredibly lucky that I hadn’t spent my occupational pension lump sum, wasn’t I?

www.cambridgeshireandpeterboroughccg.nhs.uk/_resources/assets/attachment/full/0/9586.pdf

OhTheRoses · 22/04/2020 20:54

My mother had one eye done and six weeks' later the second. NHS Only issue was that she wouldn't spend £80 on a specs prescription for six weeks! Mother would have paid if NHS hadn't done it.

MIL however is really struggling and has said her optician/dr won't refer her because she doesn't drive and can still manage. But she isn't as assertive as my mother and categorically believes if the NHS won't do it, it can't be necessary.

OhTheRoses · 22/04/2020 20:59

Nothing in that guidance AlsoHuman refers to quality of life or whether health may deteriorate before the op is undertaken.

Not exactly holistic is it.

Alsohuman · 22/04/2020 21:40

They don’t give a shit about quality of life @OhTheRoses. I was on the young side to get cataracts and they progressed horrifically fast, God knows what they’d have been like if I’d sat on the list for 18 months to get one eye done. For me it was worth the money to get them done quickly, start driving again and get my life back.

OhTheRoses · 22/04/2020 21:44

No they don't but who are they?

Alsohuman · 22/04/2020 22:12

Bureaucrats. CCGs were the worst invention ever.

Guylan · 23/04/2020 03:45

Can you explain why the UK has the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world? Can you explain why health insurance is a fundamental part of every successful health care system? Can you explain why the tiresome drones who refuse to acknowledge the myriad failures of the NHS have nothing to say but evil Tories? Two weeks from appointment to MRI in the functioning parts of the world. How long for a UK patient to see a GP?

Sorry @BovaryX I could not reply to your questions above until now. Firstly in answer to question why the UK has the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world? I will quote you this:

“Analysis of 2014 figures further showed that while the UK spent 9.1% of its GDP on healthcare in 2014, the European average was 10.1%. Looking specifically at cancer spending, compared to countries including France, Denmark, Austria and Ireland, the UK spent less on cancer per person, with Germany spending almost twice as much per head. That investment covers everything: that is, from diagnosis through to surgery, radiotherapy, medicines are obviously included in that – but so is everything else,” said Torbett. “It is not particularly surprising that, if there is significant under-investment, the UK isn’t seeing the scale and speed of benefits that are seen in some of these other European countries.” So less spending on NHS is definitely a significant factor although I am sure there other factors involved. Doesn’t mean switching the whole model is necessary but addressing areas that need improvement.

I have already pointed out to you that healthcare tourism for want of a better word is a v small part of the budget and as such is not an important issue in my view. Also bear in mind if you wanted more oversight in this area millions would have to be paid on implementing the infrastructure to facilitate this especially as we don’t have ID cards in this country which would remain an issue regardless of what model we had. It would take a long time to recoup the investment.

As to the NHS being the only model of its kind in the world, so? Until it gets adequate funding it makes it hard to compare its problems to other models that I view as operating well. You have not answered would you be against the UK adopting the American healthcare system, I will take your silence as a yes over the NHS. I think the US model would be vastly worse than the NHS overall and would not describe it a superior healthcare system when so many are left with nothing and even the insured can be bankrupted. Sure those who can afford top notch private healthcare can get excellent care in the US but it’s terrible for a lot of the population. Also if top of the range healthcare is what you are after you can pay for it here privately.

NHS may have its problems but i think unlike you there are worse alternatives and I do believe the Tories are taking us down a path to a system similar to the American model which I will explain why I fear is where we are heading for if we keep voting Tories in.

I will copy and paste what I wrote elsewhere on mumsnet to you for the rest of my reply. PFI under Blair’s govt turned out to be costly and a big mistake but does not preclude that the Condem and subsequent Conservative govt gave the smallest annual increases to NHS funding, 1.1% and 2.3% respectively, between 2010 and 2018 since the inception of the NHS 75 years ago. Theresa May in 2018 and then this govt under Johnson pledged an annual 3.6% increase to the NHS budget. The Institute of Fiscal Studies though said that increases of at least 4% a year on average are needed in order to meet the NHS’s needs and see any improvement in its services.

The privatisation of the NHS began slowly in the mid 80s with Thatcher, PFI under Blair was a costly mess and many experts in this area have shared they believe ramped up privatisation is embedded in the Condem coalition’s 2012 Health Care Act.

To the private sector, the NHS' £120 billion annual budget is a bottomless treasure chest which they would love to get even more a slice of. Quoting from journalist Sonia Poulton from an article in 2013 a year after the 2012 Health and Social Care Act was passed: ‘According to figures compiled by Social Investigations, an independent research organisation, 64 MPs have financial links with companies involved in private healthcare. Of them 52 are Conservative, nine are Labour and three are Lib Dem. There are also 142 lords with interests.

I think the NHS is even less safe from private for profit health insurers than ever before and do not agree with the view that the NHS is not at risk under this govt and the previous two from continuing to slowly move towards switching to a model more in common with the expensive, unjust US healthcare for profit system. People mention some of the European healthcare models as another possibility but Conservatives show no interest in looking at other European models. Also when countries whose models are often admired such as France, Germany, Spain etc spend a larger % of GDP on healthcare than the UK there is the question it’s not their models are necessarily better but more % of the GDP is spent on it. The Labour Party under Corbyn and I don’t expect will be any different under Starmer don’t discuss other European models but I trust they are willing to spend more on the NHS and bring spending in line with the aforementioned European models. Also they will spend more on social care which cuts by govt has added a further strain to the NHS. Yours, tiresome drone who happily admits I do not support Tory policies including on healthcare (and most others).

EdwinaMay · 23/04/2020 07:30

I don't agree with you Guylan. I think it is mainly the tabloid press and the Labour party headlines claiming that Tories are destroying the NHS that risk the Tories being voted out of office so nothing can be done. As soon as the nhs is mentioned, the screaming headlines start and nothing is done. Labour could have demanded an cross party decision making group on this but prefers to keep it as it is so it can bash the Tories - as it did in the last election (boy on hospital floor). Thankfully the electorate ignored it that time.
Neither party comes out of this well. NHS needs more tax - no party will do that or it risks losing the election.

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 23/04/2020 08:01

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BovaryX · 23/04/2020 08:08

None of the countries mentioned by @Guylan have a comparable funding system, though. They use co-pay and have multiple providers

Precisely. No other country on the planet emulates the UK's system. Its waste is legion. It's the fifth largest employer on the planet. Sandwiched between a global mega Corp, Walmart, and China's National oil company. Its repeated failure to prioritize patients featured in the Francis Report into Mid Staffs, which occurred during the period Labour were firehosing money at it. But its quasi religious status means criticism of it is heresy and so it continues. It is unfit for purpose.

isabellerossignol · 23/04/2020 09:15

On the NHS Vs private issue, I live somewhere that the waiting lists are long. As in years. My son is on the waiting list for ENT, has been for a year and it's estimated it will be at least another two, possibly three years before he is seen. Other specialisms are as bad or even worse.

When I realised how bad it was, I took out private insurance. Too late for him, but didn't want to face that sort of wait again.

But...now I have discovered that the private facilities have repeatedly failed the most basic of safety inspections. Even, in one case, found employing a doctor who was not qualified to carry out the work he was doing.

We are effectively left with very little access to safe healthcare, and it's scary.

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 23/04/2020 09:28

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Kazzyhoward · 23/04/2020 10:24

But...now I have discovered that the private facilities have repeatedly failed the most basic of safety inspections. Even, in one case, found employing a doctor who was not qualified to carry out the work he was doing.

That happens in the NHS too!

Kazzyhoward · 23/04/2020 10:27

Precisely. No other country on the planet emulates the UK's system. Its waste is legion. It's the fifth largest employer on the planet. Sandwiched between a global mega Corp, Walmart, and China's National oil company. Its repeated failure to prioritize patients featured in the Francis Report into Mid Staffs, which occurred during the period Labour were firehosing money at it. But its quasi religious status means criticism of it is heresy and so it continues. It is unfit for purpose.

People need to read "Whistle in the wind" by respected surgeon Peter Duffy. It lays bare the laziness and management ineptitude in the NHS. Until that kind of thing is tackled, it'll never improve. But, yes, it's a national religion and no one is allowed to criticise it!

ivykaty44 · 23/04/2020 10:28

Where is the £100 billion coming from to find HS2 and this is still being worked upon and has all through lockdown

Alsohuman · 23/04/2020 10:40

massive pay rises all round, fuck all improvement in efficiency or patient care

That simply isn’t true or fair. I worked in the NHS through the middle years of that Labour government and the improvement in both was massive. Waiting times for elective surgery and in A&E plummeted, mixed sex wards were eradicated, the whole service improved massively. Then 2010 arrived and everything that had been achieved was destroyed again. £4 billion was spent on a reorganisation that achieved nothing. £4 billion that could and should have been spent on patient care.

isabellerossignol · 23/04/2020 10:42

People need to read "Whistle in the wind" by respected surgeon Peter Duffy.

I just searched and it's £1.99 on Kindle, so have downloaded it.

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 23/04/2020 11:31

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Alsohuman · 23/04/2020 11:49

More anecdote, why not try some actual facts if you want me to take you seriously? Incidentally 2012 was some two years in to the most recent Tory neglect of the NHS and this is where we were more recently. You can’t blame a Labour government that hasn’t seen power for a decade for this.

www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/08/17/tripling-patients-forced-treated-mixed-sex-wards/

PigletJohn · 23/04/2020 11:51

@Alsohuman

mixed sex wards were eradicated,

What makes you think that?

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 23/04/2020 12:00

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Alsohuman · 23/04/2020 13:02

Providing evidence from The Telegraph is entirely intentional. It’s pretty obvious you’d rubbish anything that came from anywhere other than a pro Tory source.

From the Kings Fund document you linked to:

^Conclusion
Overall, in our view, the results of this audit are very positive. The ambition for the NHS has been appropriately high. There has been unprecedented investment. There have been significant improvements in most areas that the Government has focused policies on. Has there been a ‘step-change’ in NHS performance? If step-change means a significant shift of gear, with more and better services, then yes there has^

So much for fuck all improvement in efficiency or overall patient care.

RunningAwaywiththeCircus · 23/04/2020 13:44

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Alsohuman · 23/04/2020 14:28

I’m proving nothing of the sort. The NHS is a monolith that needs a root and branch review. I’ve pointed out the £4 billion debacle of the last restructure. I’ve also pointed out the lunacy of my local cataract policy, which is just one tiny example, and the utter waste of money that is CCGs.

I have no interest in silencing anyone. Nor do I have any interest in anecdote. Or personal attacks. I’ll debate anything with anyone who presents evidence of their viewpoint, there’s nothing like an intelligent discussion for an opportunity to question long held beliefs and see life from someone else’s point of view. Sadly, those discussions are extremely rare on MN.