Where do people think money comes from?

[MrsBlobbyOnLockdown]

Everyday we are hearing pay the NHS an extra 30% pay them £26 per day extra is the latest one.

I’m not disputing they deserve it of course they do & if we had an endless supply of money it’s the first place it should go.

But seriously, where do people think all this money is coming from?

What are your thoughts

This is another section of it.

@Santaclauswhosthat that's not true though. If you have 10 jobs or 2, or just one and do decades of overtime, you won't get taxed at 40% if you don't exceed the threshold of £50k. It's really basic information that you've got wrong there.

It's not a tax on a second income, it's tax on income. HMRC don't give a shit how many jobs you've got.

Typically when governments deficit spend, all they are doing is allowing future taxpayers to fund current spending.

Typically when governments deficit spend, all they are doing is allowing future taxpayers to fund current spending.

@Student133 and @MrsBlobbyonLockdown, not in all cases, it’s more nuanced than that. After a period of necessary increased government spending such as now or the fiscal stimulus after the 2008 global financial crash, if government take fiscal and monetary measures which prioritises good growth initially and interest rates remain low for a while then the national debt will unwind slowly as the growth is larger than the accrued debt by higher deficits during the increased govt spending.

I am not someone who knows much about economics and I know various factors have to be taken into account so this Is just one aspect but from what I have read but increased deficits for a while don’t automatically have to mean future taxpayers will be paying it off.

As others have mentioned prioritising growth initially after increased govt spending due to recession/war/pandemics is Keynesian theory Cameron and Osborne didn’t choose this way after the 2008 crash. They prioritised reducing the annual deficit first which required large govt cuts. The result has been slow growth and a drop in annual wages for nearly ten years of which only now are back to real term levels pre recession. Some economists say we will never catch up those lost ten years.

@MrsBlobbyonlockdowh, you might find this blog post by a retired academic economist on why he - and I know others - believe govt immediately trying to pay off the period of big increase in government spending is not helpful and the increased spending can possibly be absorbed in the long term if the right measures are taken. As said more nuanced than how I am presenting it but interesting.

mainlymacro.blogspot.com/2020/04/who-still-thinks-austerity-was-good-idea.html

Ps further to my comment above, what concerns me is how it is agreed Brexit would lose UK growth for at least the next decade so that and this increased period of spending now may be hard to stimulate good growth any time soon

I'd happily pay more taxes to invest in the NHS and its staff.

I'd happily pay more taxes to invest in the NHS and its staff.

Me too. Uk spends less on healthcare as % of GDP than Germany say does. Some argue the NHS waste it but when you know UK spends less i think much more likely any significant problems are due to underfunding not waste. I’m sure there is a little bit of waste but any huge organisation will have some

Tax take isn’t ring fenced though. Perhaps an insurance scheme would be better. Then you know where the money is going. Germany has this system.

In this country, we borrow as I posted above. HS2 is going ahead and Keynesian economics might be back in favour but that will require more borrowing. Absorbing it is the same as paying it off. Or reducing it! It might take 30 years or even longer as after ww2. But, someone pays it. Gilts have to be paid. It will be those who pay tax.

Germany doesn’t spend more via taxation alone. It spends more because it has a hybrid system but we are wedded to one taxation system and it doesn’t work in a modern society with the amount of care we require and expensive new developments and drugs.

Money currently comes from our unborn grandchildren

Spot on, LQ! Future generations.

It started with the idiotic idea that was PPI, then it became the norm that students pay run up vast debts which they will pay back from their future salaries, and now this. Future generations will not thank us.

Me too. Uk spends less on healthcare as % of GDP than Germany say does

No other country on the planet emulates the NHS Nowhere. Free at the point of access is profoundly problematic. I am astonished that people in the UK don't understand why. In the rest of the world? You have to pay are show ID to access healthcare. One thing this global pandemic will reveal is the NHS' limitations. Unfortunately, the cult like worship of the NHS will hamper serious analysis or serious reformation.

You have to pay or show health insurance to access healthcare in the rest of the world. Nowhere else on the planet can you rock up and access health care. That isn't a positive. It's a sign of terminal unsustainablitity. Why is the UK bankrolling health care access to people who aren't eligible for it?

@Bovary, I am quite aware of the differences of the UK NHS model and some other European models. I also wonder that may not understand some of the other models. German model not exactly same as NHS but 85 percent of Germans are insured through the public, statutory insurance program. It’s not government run but govt play a key role in setting standards.

It is paid for by being deducted from German’s payslips. There are about 100 insurers who are non-profit, non-governmental organizations that operate autonomously. Those earning over around 65,000 euros, self employed and some other groups, so the remaining 15%, can opt out of the public, statutory insurance program and pay for healthcare insurance run by for profit health insurers. 99.9% of Germans have health care so a universal healthcare system.

It remains that overall the German population spend more of the total GDP on health care than the UK does. Also UK social care spending is too low and causes additional stress on NHS budget.

I am not against considering other European healthcare models, though increasing NHS funding also a possibility. I am deeply against American for profit healthcare model where many still have no insurance and even those who do can be bankrupted by healthcare bills. Problem is the Tories with their links to American healthcare insurers and views by some Conservative MPs in papers they have written seem only interested in replacing NHS model with American, a big no thanks.

Labour may be reluctant to discuss other European models which as said I am open to having a discussion about as well as increasing funding for NHS and social care.

Nowhere else on the planet can you rock up and access health care.

Also @BovaryX further to my first reply to you, the estimated costs of health tourism are about 0.3% of health spending on specific services, so savings in this area alone will make a very tiny difference. Real term underfunding since 2010 has made a big difference. And UK population don’t get healthcare free it is paid for by taxes. Those who are too ill or unemployed are covered as it is a collective insurance. Going back to German model, the unemployed and sick also get cover.

Problem is the Tories

Nope. Your sloppy slogans don't cut it. The problem is no other country on the planet emulates the UK model. Nowhere. You need health insurance to access health care. Insurance is a fundamental part of every functioning health care system The NHS is unfit for purpose. Its clapping seals? They are part of its inability to acknowledge the need to adapt

£10,000 x 650? And people are saying that you couldn't do a lot with it?

I don't know about you lot, but I can think of a lot of ways to spend £6.5M effectively. Hand me the HS2 money as well, and I can assure you that the funds will be appropriately spent on something much more worthwhile.

The NHS scores very well in international comparisons.

But it has been chronically underfunded for most of its existence, historically 1 to 3% year on year compared to the European average.

Doesn't matter what system you have, if its not funded, you get problems.

The UK not having an ID card system, damages the UK across many areas, not just health.

@BovaryX, did you read anything about the German model I detailed? You have a lot of knowledge gaps.

I will also ask you is it another European model you would like or would you be happy with the American for profit model?

The NHS scores very well in international comparison

In most functioning health care systems, the trajectory from specialist appointment, to ultrasound, to MRI? Two weeks. How long does the average Brit get to see a doctor? Do you think it's a coincidence that the UK has the worst cancer survival rates of the developed world? Health insurance is ubiquitous everywhere else.

@jasjas1973, agree with all you said.

You have a lot of knowledge gaps

I have a lot of experience of healthcare beyond the UK. Nowhere else on the planet emulates the UK model. There is a reason for that. Nowhere else is 'free' at the point of access. It is insane.

Nope. Your sloppy slogans don't cut it.

Weak, weak reply from you. Perhaps tell me why you don’t believe the Tories would definitely not like an American profit model system? I am all ears.

Perhaps tell me why you don’t believe the Tories would definitely not like an American profit model system?

Can you explain why no other country on the planet emulates the NHS? Can you explain why the UK has the worst cancer survival rates in the developed world? Can you explain why health insurance is a fundamental part of every successful health care system? Can you explain why the tiresome drones who refuse to acknowledge the myriad failures of the NHS have nothing to say but evil Tories? Two weeks from appointment to MRI in the functioning parts of the world. How long for a UK patient to see a GP?

Nobody, not even the Tories, is going to "bring in" (how, exactly?) a US styled healthcare system to the UK. The US model is extreme and shit in a different way from the UK model but both are extreme and shit. If we went down the same route as the rest of the western world ie ditched our behemoth, that would be something.