to think we really are 2 completely different cultures - the USA and the UK - just looking at the 'rebellion' taking place

[chomalungma]

www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8228769/Bleak-figures-China-US-economic-hit-virus.html

I know it's only some Americans. I know that it's a massive country with many many more people than the UK

But these scenes are astounding. People flocking to beaches. Protesting about lockdown.
Protesting with guns about lockdown

You just can't imagine these scenes in the UK at the moment.
Especially not the Ohio Zombie picture

It just amazes me - sometimes you think we are very similar to the USA, and then many times, you realise we are completely different.

*not done well
This is not to say that smart people do not educate themselves.
I was quite disturbed by the thread about The Troubles as well.

www.theguardian.com/teacher-network/2018/may/26/secret-teacher-history-bias-school-fear-student-future

theconversation.com/british-empire-is-still-being-whitewashed-by-the-school-curriculum-historian-on-why-this-must-change-105250

"A third of people in the UK believe Britain’s colonies were ‘better off’ for being part of an empire, and they are also more likely to say they would like to still have an empire than people from anywhere else – despite the many atrocities that were committed under British colonialism. Experts say that the results of the poll are ‘alarming’ and betray a deep ignorance about the realities of the British Empire and the lasting effects of colonialism for people of colour in Britain. And the research points to gaping holes in education".

Read more: metro.co.uk/2020/03/17/teachers-explain-british-colonialism-taught-schools-12381849/?ito=cbshare

Twitter: twitter.com/MetroUK | Facebook: www.facebook.com/MetroUK/

I don't mean this as an us-vs.-them. But I am a little shocked at how little responsibility I see some British people taking for the horrors that Britain has released upon the world as opposed to the responsibility that they think other countries have released upon the worldnot just the U.S., which is my country, so I may be biased, butwell, basically any other country. For instance, thinking that the UK has no hand in slavery, though slavery made it rich and fed its mills. And believing that the UK gave India railroads out of charity to bring it civilization instead of to siphon out its riches.

We learnt about the transatlantic slave trade and Britain's role in it when I was at school.

@Durgasarrow

I agree. A poster earlier in the thread was saying how horrible “you” (meaning current Americans) treated the native Americans.

Those were English settlers and their descendants.

I’m not keen on blaming the living for the sins of the dead. It seems useless and unfair.

I’m also not sure what buzz an English person would get out of suggesting that American History from 150- 200 years ago is all on the head of current day Americans while neglecting to acknowledge that many of those bad things that happened under English colonial rule at the hands of English settlers.

A third of people in the UK believe Britain’s colonies were ‘better off’ for being part of an empire, and they are also more likely to say they would like to still have an empire than people from anywhere else

That does not surprise me. There is certainly a lot of Empire mythology around and our media and some politicians hark back to a different time - along with using WW2 as well.

I remember growing up with a map of the Empire on the school wall.

I sometimes wonder what would have happened if the British had won the War of Independence? It could have been a very different world.

I had an economics professor who taught from the perspective that staying a colony for US would have been a better decision economically; the crown was paying for our military protection and countless other things. Fun class and made us think.

staying a colony for US would have been a better decision economically; the crown was paying for our military protection and countless other things.

Military protection from whom?

GB didn't have the population or resources to colonize north America while making the investments at home required by the industrial revolution and colonizing India. They kept Canada for less than 100 years before granting it independence, having come to the conclusion that governing colonies that large and that far away was a losing proposition.

It is an interesting discussion topic.

Re. British children not learning their own history. The problem is that there's so much history to learn that you literally can't cover all of it at school. In the 1980's-90's, you'd get a general overview of the monarchs and certain key dates (e.g. 1066) and then go in-depth on certain periods, e.g. the Tudors monarchs, the First World War, etc.

Friends at different schools might study different periods of history, but no one covered everything. That may have changed nowadays.

Re. British children not learning their own history. The problem is that there's so much history to learn that you literally can't cover all of it at school. In the 1980's-90's, you'd get a general overview of the monarchs and certain key dates (e.g. 1066) and then go in-depth on certain periods, e.g. the Tudors monarchs, the First World War, etc.

My Irish school managed to cover all of that as well as Irish history and the american revolution and civil war. I wish we had learned more of African and Asian history than we did (we did learn a bit) but as you say you can't cover everything.

You would think that British educators who devise the curriculum would prioritise the history of the British empire and its colonies just so people living today might understand current politics. I would think understanding the history of british involvement in Ireland or India might be more important in educational terms than a deep dive into the tudors.

Missconduct darned if remember. Pirates?

The problem is that there's so much history to learn that you literally can't cover all of it at school.

True!

I grew up with a glamorized idea of the British Colonial period here in the
US, too. Not from history, but probably from watching movies and being white. 😔

@HoldMyLobster @MissConductUS Sounds like we need to move! I polled friends/family in my state today about their PTO.

My DH gets 15 days but that includes any sick time he might need. Several friends in the health and well-being arena (hair stylists, massage therapists, trainers) get big fat zero. Most friends with office jobs, mostly in PR/marketing/advertising, average 10-12 days per year with varying levels of paid sick leave from 0-40 hours per year.

ALL have zero paid maternity leave. That includes several public sector employees, which I think is appalling. I had mine in the UK and got 6 months full pay.

I don't think american school children learn about the native americans much.. I was surprised how little there is about them in museums.
There are 574 different native american tribes NOW according to google.
And it wasn't just english immigrants who killed the native americans - immigrants were from all over as I understand it. Including south America. Cowboys were all english speaking in the movies but that's because the US was largely english speaking and that was the market for movies. One of the largest number of immigrants were Irish.
Many/most western countries had colonies. Many Asian and African countries had slaves or indentured servants (some still do!!)
I don't think many acts from British colonising were good, but people only read about the British and assume only they behaved like that.

In the British imperial system the term 'colony' had a particular meaning. India was never a colony, was not run by the UK before 1857, and was mostly indirect rule under local princes raising local armies with local taxes.

There were protectorates, mandates, trucial states and trusteeships, sometimes in partnership with France, like Murder in Paradise. And after 1867 there were dominions. Stalin was very unhappy that the likes of Canada, Australia etc were to be full members of the UN since he thought they were "English" colonies. He demanded seventeen seats for the USSR, later compromised to three.

(The only English colony was Newfoundland, established in 1583.)

I haven't read this whole thread but live in the USA.

I just wanted to point out that guns arrived BEFORE civil government in the USA. You had invaders with new technology (guns, ammo, dynamite etc.) in areas on the frontier as it moved from the East coast states and gradually was pushed West over a long period of time and the technology proceeded organized government. It's not like the technology of guns arose within an official society such as that that already existing in England or France. It got off the boat with the Spanish and the British invaders. The history of the USA is very different and not directly comparable to Europe. In terms of size, the UK is about the size of California and has a similar population. Then you have 49 other states. I think you need to compare the USA with ALL of Europe rather than just one European country. The vast majority of Americans are completely compliant with all requests for lock-down from local government. The protests are being organized by right-wing groups paid for by the Koch brothers. The vast majority of people in my state do not identify with the protesters at all. The West coast Pacific states: Washington, Oregon and California are all strongly Democratic and most people oppose Trump. I am in the Seattle area in Washington state and here on the West coast we have kept the virus under control and are getting ready to open up businesses again. Our state has had 786 deaths so far. Washington State is 76% the size of the UK with 17% of the population. So compared to the UK we are doing a lot better. If we were matching UK numbers we should be at 2,500 + deaths for our population. We were the first state to have known COVID-19 cases.

HannaYeah

The French also have plenty of problems though. They have poverty, homelessness, drug abuse, etc. I have a friend in France working in this field.

Culturally, I don’t think most people in the US would trade their lives for the French one, though working less sounds nice. It’s definitely not for me.
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Yesterday 12:15 chomalungma

They have poverty, homelessness, drug abuse, etc

Just like most countries then.

I’m just amazed by these Americans that are “I’m all right jack”, my life is great “GO USA”!!!
Oh “the French have homelessness” as if it doesn’t exist in the US 🙄
This thread is about political culture in regards to lockdown and all I’m hearing is “oh I don’t pay much tax MY LiFE IS FABULOUS.
Ffs do any of you look outside your bubble at what is going on outside your immediate vicinity?
It’s a shit show.

People are actually ingesting Bleach because Trump is a total moron and goes on National Television to muse on injecting it.
Oh it was “sarcasm”
But hey you don’t pay as much tax as we do.
Have a pat on the back to congratulate you on your fantastic lifestyle, that insulates you from acknowledging what is going on in your govts response to this pandemic. More people have died than in the Vietnam war.
But hey, who cares, it’s happening to poor people!
Jeez.

Ulver I think people are just trying to give more balance to the media reports on the USA in the UK. It's our local state and county governments that affect our lives more directly in terms of the lock-down at the moment. Of course Trump is a moron and he didn't have a popular mandate, 3 million more people voted for Hilary Clinton. You may not know in the UK that most of the mainline TV stations (other than FOX) have stopped showing Trump press conferences unless he says something new as they are considered propaganda, idiotic and a waste of time unless Dr Anthony Fauci or Dr Deborah Birx are talking. This crisis has revealed worldwide the importance of competent leadership, the value and role of good government and that experts truly do have their place. There's a very good chance in November that the Democrats will take back not only the Presidency but the Senate and they would have a clean sweep of Congree and the Executive branch to pass some substantial legislation akin to a new New Deal, like that passed during the Great Depression by FDR. Let's not give up on America yet.

** typo, meant to say Congress not Congree.

I would be delighted if Trump was ousted, mostly for my friends that live in the US but also for the rest of the world!
I get your point but it’s becoming a bit much people saying that France has a homeless problem as if it’s not a huge issue in the US?
I’ve been watching my friends Insta from LA and there is a massive tent city like a Barrio there which looks bloody scary.
I’ve visited the US frequently and even in LA the homeless and destitute are glaringly obvious.

There's a very good chance in November that the Democrats will take back not only the Presidency but the Senate and they would have a clean sweep of Congree and the Executive branch to pass some substantial legislation akin to a new New Deal, like that passed during the Great Depression by FDR

Do you think so?

I guess Trump won't be able to do his rallies like he used to. But Trump happened.

I guess the economic effects may play a strong factor in the election

I think the election is why Trump wants churches back in operation.
He relies on pastors to deliver a large proportion of his vote.

I get your point but it’s becoming a bit much people saying that France has a homeless problem as if it’s not a huge issue in the US

This.

I get people live in a bubble - but you have to live in one hell of a bubble not to realise that there is homelessness and drug abuse in the US - just as there is in France and in most other countries.

Ulver are they saying that though? Or are they just pointing out that all our western nations have serous social problems and it's a lot easier to point at the problems in other nations than acknowledge those in our own?

Not sure if it's been touched on in this thread, but when we talk about the political divisions in US society let's not forget that there is a lot of evidence that the Russians activity spread misinformation throughout the election campaign in 2016. They did this not by introducing new narratives but by blowing up obscure conspiracy theories and very small groups and making them seem like they were everywhere. Much as they did during the Brexit campaign. The FBI just notified the nation that Russia, China, Saudi Arabia and others are all behind an enormous amount of current misinformation. So just remember, just because you see a message a lot does NOT mean it is being generated by the average American, the majority of whom have a decent education with a higher % of university graduates than many western nations. We may not have the loudest voices but the majority are calm, rational and centrist, although progressive ideas are becoming very popular here, especially among the Millennial generation who graduated into the 2008 financial crisis and are now disproportionality affected by COVID-19 economically. They are also the most diverse generation in American history, except for the one under them who are 10-22. America is ready for big change, Trump and the last gasp of the white cultural fear and paranoia he represents will soon be demographically overwhelmed as the boomers age and die off. California is already a white minority state. Of course many of the Boomers are also open to progressive ideas as they were the rebels of the 1960s. If the younger generations would only vote more instead of just Tweeting outrage we would get those changes a lot quicker.

As for guns. Guns in the home are statistically more likely to be used for suicide by a member of that household than for any other reason. If more guns are being sold while everyone is staying home, with 20% having lost their jobs, expect a lot more suicides, not necessarily murder.

Don't you guys know all about Republican voter suppression? Various high profile Republicans were acknowledging in the past few weeks that if Mail-in Voting was the norm across the nation the Republicans would never be in power again. That's why they even were talking about crazy ideas like trying to shut down the Post Office! If we all get to mail-in votes due to COVID-19 Republicans are toast. Especially as everyone would be home with nothing better to do than pay very close attention to the Election.

That's why Trump makes up those lies about "millions of illegals voting" to explain to his delusional followers why they would lose. Even though voter fraud is extremely rare in the USA. Trump won due to the Electoral College and he won because of small numbers of votes (such as 40,000) in key, mostly rural, counties in swing states. Those states are almost all swinging toward the Dems. Trump's core is only 25% of the population; to win he has to appeal to independents and he is losing large numbers of them in this crisis. Steve Bannon was his campaign's mastermind in computer modeling and zooming in on key voters in key areas and flooding them with messages through social media, just as his company did for the Brexit campaign. But in 2020 opponents of Republicans are getting flooded with small campaign donations from the general public ($10, $20 at a time). The 35 year old Democratic female Navy Pilot running against Mitch McConnell for the Senate in Kentucky is particularly popular. McDonnell is the extremely right wing, extremely rich Southern, White, Good ol' Boy who has enacted so much right wing law and appointed 100s of right-wing Federal Judges across the nation, particularly under the cover and distraction of Trump.