To feel that the predictions and hopes that “work from home” is “the new normal” is setting women back in the workplace?

[Justamassivefart]

I work full time in an international company. I also have three children of primary school age. I like many others have struggled during lockdown to do childcare, home educate and continue my full time job from home and try to show that I am “busy” enough so that I do not get made redundant or be seen as surplus to requirements.

Like many other women I am also the default carer for the DC and also cook and cleaner for the household. The regular childminder is not working during the pandemic which has meant that these tasks also fall to me 24/7.

My husband does not want the children leaving the house or any childcarer coming to ours because of the infection risk.

My husband is a complete nob who does not pull his weight, so I married the wrong person and I recognise it will be different when married to an equal and I do plan to get divorced. But even then I would still have all these responsibilities as a single parent as he does not lift a finger, and works intermittently.

I put a huge amount of value in the space and freedom to wear my uniform and go to work in the morning, knowing the DC are happy at school, knowing that I am independent and pick them up at the end of the day.

So every time I am on a call or see an email from (usually a male partner with grown up kids and wives who have been domestic slaves for the sake of their husbands’ career) saying nothing will ever be the same, work from home is “the new normal,” we can “cut the overheads” of an office, my heart sinks.

If the pandemic is going to repeat and there will be repeated outbreaks and schools again will be shut and everyone again has to work from home and women again become the default carers while holding down a full time job, slowly but surely, I feel we will lose the progress we have made.

Is there a bigger picture here I am missing?

YANBU - yes it will set women back
YABU - you are not seeing the whole picture

Its temporary in some respects, but I think long term workplaces are going to be stricter about having child care while working from home - while everyone understands at the minute, once child care is available I don't see people understanding meetings being interrupted by shrieking etc, and given so many people are struggling to do any work with children around, employers are going to take an even dimmer view to wfh with children around.

Assuming childcare is in place, wfh is going to be more normal, all the old excuses clearly won't hold water and it should help a lot of families juggle work and pick-up/drop off from school etc.

I don't see this. I am in a similar position to you OP. I am finding it no different working from home really and in all honesty am leaving DH to do more of the meals and sorting out arguments etc while I am upstairs working as I am busier than him at the moment. I can also get a full 9-6 done largely uninterrupted which I couldn't before because.

I think this is an interesting question, and I completely see your point of view.
Your family situation sounds like rather an extreme example, but I do get the impression during lockdown it is predominantly the wives and mothers of the household who are shouldering the bulk of homeschooling, domestic chores and meal planning/cooking alongside their paid job.

However, I will agree with PP who have said that it needn't set women back at all, in fact, I'd add that working from home is preferable as it frees up travel hours, saves cost (for those who'd normally buy Pret/M&S lunches home meals are far cheaper, saves cost of travel).

Where both partners are working from home I see it bringing families closer together, both partners getting a clearer picture of what the other's work involves, so eg. on a day one partner has too much on, the other steps up on the domestic role, and vice versa. Obviously this will only be the case in relationships with a foundation of respect and support, and once schools are open.

I'd actually love a society where WFH was the norm, and can see women benefitting greatly from that.

In my industry no one would dream of trying to wfh without childcare.

I completely 100% agree with you

This weird “home schooling” situation is I’m sure falling disproportionately to women.

But wfh in general when schools are open is awesome! Cutting commuting time makes family life so much better when parents both work. I’m able to work ft by wfh but if I had to commute I’d have to cut my hours or dh would.

I can see where you’re coming from OP, but to be honest, I think you’re projecting a little too much of your own anxiety about your own situation onto everyone else.

Firstly, it’s not the case than men do nothing by default.

Secondly, it’s not the case that women who don’t work are domestic slaves by default. For a start, many of them will have cleaners and do very little domestic work beyond the kids. And they have chosen to be with the kids for their own very good reasons most of the time. Yes going to work does still tend to be more difficult for women after children, but they is not to say those women who aren’t working have made less progress in life. Maybe they are confident enough in their progress and priorities to be able to make different choices, that’s all.

Anyway, I’m sorry you’re struggling and in this position.

The title is misleading.

I think you meant "working full time while also doing full time childcare"

Which is clearly unsustainable no matter how involved one's OH is.

Yes I do think women are being utterly shafted by the childcare being shut down. The whole situation is a joke

Yes, it’s the current situation that is the issue.

All the childless people at my work are rocking the work from home business as they have no family responsibilities. In comparison the parents, usually women, are run ragged trying to work, homeschool, take
Care of children etc.

I wouldn't say this if you weren't considering a divorce but "not everyone has a twat for a husband".
Don't forget your lack of childcare is only temporary. Plus, the kids will learn how to manage for themselves a bit, let them do a bit more, maybe?

This is utterly absurd and very tunnel visioned to your situation.

This ^

Of course YABU.

Apart from anything else, if you work from home, your dc would still - under normal circumstances - be out all day at school and then at their wrap around care provision (whilst they were little - that does reduce the need when they are in that 'between age' when you wouldn't want them to be home alone but they can entertain themselves for a couple of hours whilst you work.

Secondly, don't assume that every woman is married to a twat that doesn't pull his weight.

My misgiving is not so much being expected to take the brunt of childcare and homeschooling while WFH, which is clearly impossible and specific to the pandemic. It's more that WFH becomes acceptable, more women take it, and we become like this invisible underclass paid less and picking kids up from school.

Your husband is the one letting you down here. If working from home becomes standard once this is over it will really benefit women. My commute is an hour each way. If I didn’t have to commute daily we could do without hired help for childcare. Or I could have more time to focus on myself, maybe become fitter (I do very little exercise at the moment which is not sustainable) or maybe spending more time on my creative projects which are currently limited to what I can achieve on the train.

This “new normal” isn’t normal. Normally, children of working parents are either in school or in childcare. That doesn’t change if you are wfh, properly.

There’s an excellent podcast with Matt Mullenweg (Wordpress founder) about how distributed networks can really benefit both employees and employers- in certain industries, with good managers, and with the correct “home” situations.

For those of us still with jobs (for now) being a parent is indeed a disadvantage workwise, in the current situation. And yes, obviously much more of a disadvantage for single parents and mothers whose partners don’t do a fair share, which is probably the majority, since that’s the set up in normal times.

Suggest planning to progress the separation/divorce when you can do it with least negative impact for yourself and the DC.

In the meantime you don’t have to comply with your H’s wishes, eg take the DC out for exercise.

And don’t cook, shop or do any laundry for your H. Just do the essentials for yourself and the DC.

I was where you were. But several years ago now.

I loved my job. Actually I didnt. It was just my time away from abusive exh. So yes, the though of working from home more, would not have been welcomed.

However after a few years of being single and now living with dp, working from home is lovely.

You have assumed the men you are speaking about are the same as your husband. I was on a call with the FD of our company yesterday. A video call. While we discussed some reporting. While he fed his 11 months old and had their toddler at the table drawing. Because his wife was on a call that couldnt be interrupted.

Dp isnt working at the moment, so doing all the childcare and housework while I work.

Flexible working and working from home will help my career and also cut down childcare costs. I can log on early and drop ds off at school at the usual start time. And pick him up in the afternoon. Rather than after school club.

As a single parent, this would have been amazing.

You are looking at this through the lense of your life and situation. It's not applicable, to all women.

Oh and yes putting out a commute is a huge bonus. No more leaving at 7.15am and getting back at 5.30pm.

It’s applicable to some degree to the majority of woh mothers though, since the majority do way more parenting/domestics than woh fathers.

OP I agree, but for slightly different reasons.

The number of friends I have who have agreed to be furloughed because their DH earn more and they can’t both work with no childcare is scary. I am really concerned that many will lose their jobs after this. If you are on furlough your company is saying you would be redundant, but for the job retention scheme. It’s unlikely all these jobs are going to magically reappear (I don’t think the scheme will be extended for everyone last 1 June).

Also a disproportionately high number of friends are in support roles (PA, Cleaners, office manager) and again are being furloughed because their roles are disappearing.

Interesting thread. In our case, things have well and truly changed. DH is the main earner and works away most of the week and does 'home' office at his parents' place a couple of miles away, with private office space on one or two days. With his previous job he worked from 'home' most of the time and he or his mother did school runs and after school care a few times a week to allow for my shift pattern.

With lockdown, he now has to work from the kitchen table of our relatively small house and field a grumpy teen and two small primary school aged ones. I go skipping off to work (NHS, mostly non-clinical so not frontline) and leave him to it.

He seems to be just about managing and fortunately has a sympathetic employer, so when the kids had a full on yelling match in the middle of a conf call it (hopefully) didn't upset his boss too much.

It's difficult though. The house is always a pigsty. He's naturally messy and I'm finding it hard to bite my tongue. I'm also an early bird and have usually walked the dog by 8 and I get a bit irritated when he rolls out of bed at 9:00am. I'm not able to have the washing machine on while he's working because the noise upsets him. He does an awful lot of cooking though and is far more patient with the 'homeschooling' bits that we actually manage.

He's hoping that if it can be proven how well he and his relatively new team are all doing, they'll all be able to go into the office far less when this is all over. I'd like to think it would free me up to do some more hours and progress in my role but unfortunately think it would just mean he would rely on his mother far more, as was happening in his previous WFH job.

Not wanting the washing machine on when working

YANBU.

What would benefit women most of all is real CHOICE, real OPPORTUNITY, and real FREEDOM in pursuit.

Coronavirus has highlighted in stark relief how many seemingly decent men really see their wife's job as a fluffy wee hobby. "Ur working? Adorbs hun!" ☺️

Most people here are takking a out problems that impact women working in general.

And they are right. The fact that women are taking furlough because their husbands job is far to important and must support them, is damaging to women. The fact that lots of working men do far less childcare than their working female partners is an issue.

That's a issue in general. That does impact womens careers.

But working from home wont make that worse.

That's a problem we had before covid. It's a problem we will have after.

It's not about working from home. It's about men and women accepting certain set ups and falling into routines that damage woman's careers.

I always remember a thread talking about the issue of mens career coming first.

A poster said her husband was a GP and could not work flexibly, so she didnt work. They had to priortise his job.

Along comes another poster saying they were a GP and as a GP they had the ability for her to work more flexibly. So she worked round her husbands job. They had to priortise that. Because he couldnt.

Same job, both times men being prioritised.

In my company the directors can work flexibly. The women use this to provide extra childcare, stay home when the kids are ill. Quite a few of the men use their job as an excuse why they cant take a day off when the kids are ill. They are too important to not attend a meeting in person.

Odd, because all of the meetings still go ahead with us all on microsoft teams and still have the same effectiveness.

This a problem we have in society. Not really to do with working from home or covid.

Covid IS relevant because the DC are at home, with parents asked to facilitate distance learning. Also increasing domestic work, eg more meals, cleaning (eg more people in the home more, cleaners can’t come). Which, in households where both parents do paid work, is mainly done by mothers.