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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

Dear Sirs

328 replies

Suzanne12 · 16/04/2020 10:45

Is this an acceptable way to start an email that will be received by either a man or a woman? Would you say something if a colleague used this term to send an email to a generic inbox?

Yabu - it's fine
Yanbu - it's not acceptable anymore

OP posts:
koshkatt · 16/04/2020 11:52

However, if a technical explanation is required, perhaps it's because it has fewer syllables and the second word is a voiceless alveolar sibilant rather than a bilabial nasal sound

Do you always read your emails aloud? Must be a bit annoying for your colleagues.

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 11:53

Why should women be addressed according to their marital status?/Because they choose to be addressed that way?

I don't think it's anyone's business whether I'm married or not just because I might want to apply for a Next catalogue, but if you're happy with that…

Brefugee · 16/04/2020 11:53

It’s professional to use this term.

gosh i've seen some tosh in my time, see also Dear Sirs should become the generic greeting to include humans of any gender and all the other blind acceptance of a male norm.

Fuck, as they say, that shit.

I have always always insisted on Ms and if we'd had Mx back when i was starting out I'd have used that for everyone. PP mentioned we use male default, for eg seeing a fox running under a fence. I work very very hard at using female default for as much as i can. I can tell who the arses are depending on how they react Grin

Likea · 16/04/2020 11:53

However, if a technical explanation is required, perhaps it's because it has fewer syllables and the second word is a voiceless alveolar sibilant rather than a bilabial nasal sound. and now you're being silly. It looks and sounds bloody ridiculous, and not clever like you probably intended.

andyindurham · 16/04/2020 11:54

Most of the magazines and newspapers I write for just use a surname when referring to someone after they have first been introduced with their full name

In my experience (mostly on local newspapers), the rule was full name at first use, title + surname on subsequent uses. Exceptions for sports reports ('Mr. Ronaldo completed his hat-trick in the 73rd minute would' sound very odd!), references to the suspect / convict in criminal proceedings and those instances where you have more than one person with the same surname and it would be confusing to have two 'Mrs Smiths' in the same story.

Of course, a lot of news stories could avoid the Mrs / Miss / Ms issue by referring to Cllr Bloggs, President Bloggs, Sgt Bloggs etc.

Don't think I've ever had a complaint about just a surname; with titles, I've had complaints when I've had it wrong (not unreasonable). However, I mostly write about sport, so it rarely arises.

FrippEnos · 16/04/2020 11:55

HopelessLayout

but if you're happy with that…

and that is the point.

BlackCatsRule88 · 16/04/2020 11:55

Pisses me off no end!

MillieMoodle · 16/04/2020 11:55

As others have said, it's pretty standard in law firms but the correspondence is being addressed to the firm, not the individual, and the correspondence should be read as being received from the sending firm, rather than the individual. It doesn't bother me at all. I wouldn't address an email to anyone other than another law firm that way though.

I think the legal profession has far greater issues of sexism to deal with tbh.

koshkatt · 16/04/2020 11:56

Great post Brefugee

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 11:57

gosh i've seen some tosh in my time, see also Dear Sirs should become the generic greeting to include humans of any gender and all the other blind acceptance of a male norm.

Talk about missing the point…

The meanings of words evolve in the English language—that's why it's known as a living language. Currently, the word "Sir" is a respectful way to refer to a person of the male gender. It could evolve to become a respectful way to refer to a person of any gender.

Geddit?

ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2020 11:57

It’s professional to use this term.

No, it's not. Or shouldn't be seen as such nowadays.

I think the legal profession has far greater issues of sexism to deal with tbh.

As I said, it's an indicator of an industry which has institutional sexism.

koshkatt · 16/04/2020 11:58

person of any gender

Again, you mean 'either sex'. And what you are saying is nonsense.

TabbyMumz · 16/04/2020 11:58

Its Dear Sir / Madam, if you dont know who it is.

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 11:58

and now you're being silly. It looks and sounds bloody ridiculous, and not clever like you probably intended.

And I thought being asked why I thought one word sounded nicer than another was a silly question, so was attempting to respond with humour. Apologies for the humour fail.

ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2020 11:59
  • Currently, the word "Sir" is a respectful way to refer to a person of the male gender. It could evolve to become a respectful way to refer to a person of any gender.

Geddit?*

No, I think you've missed the point.Hmm using a specifically male term as the default is never done with any respect for women. It perpetuates the invisible 'second sex ' mentality.

koshkatt · 16/04/2020 12:00

You were trying to be clever and made yourself look very silly Hopeless!

nakedavengerreturns · 16/04/2020 12:02

The legal profession has overwhelming levels of males at senior partner level yet the opposite is true at junior level. It's just starting to level out thank goodness as those females rise though the ranks and the old crusty men get kicked out with their carriage clocks.

The 'Dear Sirs' shit should have stopped long ago but will thankfully die out now the ancient men who convince people that 'Sirs' also includes 'women' are going.

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 12:02

You were trying to be clever and made yourself look very silly Hopeless!

Oh dear, better hang my head in shame.

WeBuiltCisCityOnSeeingSouls · 16/04/2020 12:03

"It’s professional to use this term"

What, it's professional to be sexist?!Where the fuck do you work, 1953?

All those who thinks "Sirs" is OK as a default (and who have a husband) would you be happy to be addressed as Mr Jane Smith, which also used to be a default, women being addressed as an add on to their husband?

Things used to be a norm but then times change, thank fuck. It used to be the norm that your colleague Kevin smoked at his desk and pinched your arse when you were making him a coffee at his request.

"Well it's just the default in some industries, I'm not offended by it, it's always been like that"

No.

AmberBird · 16/04/2020 12:03

Dear Sirs - no way, totally unacceptable! How rude and patronising.

Dear Sir or Madam - old fashioned, formal but acceptable

To whom it may concern - is fine too.

Or Hello or Hi - Good Morning

ErrolTheDragon · 16/04/2020 12:04

It might be instructive to ponder actual evolution of language.
'Man' was originally the default, generic human - males were 'wermen' , females 'wifmen'. But, maybe because some were the second sex in society, 'man' came to mean Male and women were 'othered'.

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 12:04

No-one has yet addressed the question of why a respectful term for males, and a respectful term for females, should be two different words.

If you don't like "SIr" than pick something else.

HopelessLayout · 16/04/2020 12:04

then

koshkatt · 16/04/2020 12:06

As an English teacher I am instilling in to my classes that archaic nonsense like this should be challenged - they are shocked that it goes on thankfully so hopefully they will grow up to address these issues should they persist in their future workplaces.

TheStuffWasBad · 16/04/2020 12:06

The plural of madam is mesdames.

Unless you are taking about people that run brothels.

I wouldn't choose to use it, but I can't get too concerned about it. There are whole languages that use the male plural as the mixed gender plural as standard.