Dear Sirs

[Suzanne12]

Is this an acceptable way to start an email that will be received by either a man or a woman? Would you say something if a colleague used this term to send an email to a generic inbox?

Yabu - it's fine
Yanbu - it's not acceptable anymore

I might be old fashioned but I have always understood that a formal letter requires a "Dear"
It also serves to mark the start of the correspondence in a way that the suggested alternatives don't

Bloggs Ltd

FAO Wendy
17/4/20

Dear Sirs
Re Robert's House

How else would you do a formal letter?
Replace the Dear Sir with To Bloggs Ltd?

So direct it to Bloggs ltd and cut out the nonsense of calling a legal entity 'Dear'.
It's less ambiguous, surely lawyers don't like ambiguity?

Why does that formality upset you? It's not ambiguous at all. A formal letter addresses as "Dear Sirs" would be signed off "Yours faithfully, Firm Name" - is that unacceptable too?

There's lots of formalities in law that make no sense outside of law, but are inambiguous within a legal context because that's the convention. For example barristers referring to each other in court as "my learned friend" when they are anything but friendly. Or solicitors rarely contacting a barrister directly but going through the clerk to make most arrangements/ ask questions that need answering by the barrister (including sending documents, arranging a call etc). Or calling high court judges "my lord" when they're not Lords.

Using "Dear" in formal correspondence, whether addressing an entity or individual is simply a conventional formality.

When i was a child at school we were taught it was always dear sir/madam and this was over 20 years ago so no i dont think its been the norm for many many years. Not acceptable in this day and age with the equality act etc.

"I might be old fashioned but I have always understood that a formal letter requires a "Dear""

That sounds quite modern to me. Old-fashioned would be refusing to use dear for someone you don't know because they're not dear to you. A lot of letters to newspapers seem to start just 'Sir' without the dear.

Unfortunately there is no direct plural female equivalent to 'Dear Sirs' is there?

You can't put 'Dear Sirs/Madams'

Life is too short to worry imo.

What minor change would you suggest?Dear Sirs is used to address the business which is really an "it" rather than male or female.

You keep pointing this out, but it's 'Sirs' because the letter is written for the partners of the firm/directors of the business in their capacity as decision makers, not the business itself. The business might be a legal entity but it can't read. Otherwise it would be 'Dear Legal Entity', or 'Dear Business Name'.

Dear Sirs (a plural) makes absolutely no sense as a salutation in a letter for a single legal entity either. The fact it has come to be accepted as a way to address the business doesn't change the underlying intention or history behind the phrase, or it's lack of accuracy.

its
*
kirinm it depends on who's sending it and from which team to be honest, as some are more rigid than others and some have a bit more wiggle room when it comes to standard form.

Generally it will be Dear Sir/Madam I think, even in most of the litigation teams (though some people are still very resistant). Ie acknowledging the solicitor dealing/the reader as an unknown individual, rather than the firm.

I might be old fashioned but I have always understood that a formal letter requires a "Dear"

It's a formality. Which may not now serve a good purpose in some contexts.
The underlying idea of all manners and etiquette is to make other people more comfortable, not to annoy. If a traditionally polite form no longer serves that purpose - as is the case with Dear Sirs, clearly stemming from a deeply sexist age and perpetuating a sexist undercurrent - then it needs replacing.

The business might be a legal entity but it can't read. Otherwise it would be 'Dear Legal Entity', or 'Dear Business Name'.

@BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs but such letters are signed off with the sender Firm Name, yet businesses can't write. Dear Sirs is just a formality - it really isn't that deep.

There's lots of formalities in law that make no sense outside of law

You haven't explained why this convention makes sense in the law or why, if a letter concerns a legal entity like a company, it can't just be addressed to the relevant legal entity.

It's a formality. Which may not now serve a good purpose in some contexts.
The underlying idea of all manners and etiquette is to make other people more comfortable, not to annoy.

I agree, and also think that conventions and traditions that make no sense out of context are often designed to exclude, which in the case of the law is a very bad thing.

I was taught Sirs is neutral if you dont know gender but that was 20 odd years ago but still use it on formal letters

I worked in solicitors for thirty years until recently. Always been used till the day I left.

I was taught Sirs is neutral if you dont know gender

People used to be taught that women and black people were inferior to white men. People used to be taught all sorts of things which are unacceptable now.

Don't forget it's less than a hundred years since the first women became solicitors in the U.K.

In 1913 the Law Society refused to allow four women to sit the Law Society examinations. The women took the case to the Court of Appeal. But in a famous case, Bebb v The Law Society, the Court of Appeal upheld the Law Society's decision. The Judge, Mr Justice Joyce, ruled that women were not "persons" within the meaning of the Solicitors Act of 1843.

'Dear Sirs' arises from this background. I'm astonished anyone (other than male chauvinists) defends its continued use.

news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/40448.stm

@nicknamehelp

I was taught Sirs is neutral if you dont know gender but that was 20 odd years ago but still use it on formal letters

I'm genuinely not goading but I find this fascinating as I can't fathom why you wouldn't challenge this tradition and just use "to whom it may concern"?

As a business owner it seems really strange to me, particularly when the letters are from people who would like me to consider them as suppliers, because it is immediately offputting.

My mum told me that decades ago when the bank or a supplier called our house to discuss a bill etc, they wouldn't speak to her even though everything was in joint names. Yet businesses don't still say no sorry madam we want to speak to sir.

Surely business conventions should shift to adapt to the modern world.

@nestisflown of course it is. It didn't come from nowhere. The decision to use it was made intentionally. The fact it was a while ago doesn't mean it can't be challenged and reassessed, and the fact it's a formality doesn't mean its historical context should be ignored.

A sign off with just 'Firm Name' is (IME) more likely to be used by someone starting a letter with 'Dear Sirs'. I see more 'Yours Sincerely/Faithfully [Person Name] For [Firm Name]/For and on behalf of' or variants thereof signed by people that start with 'Dear Sir/Madam/Name.' Perfectly acceptable alternatives.

I can't get too wound up about a sign off with just the firm name though given that it doesn't automatically assume the maleness of the board. However, the more accurate and equivalent salutation would be 'Dear Company/Firm Name', so if people want to use that instead then I'm certainly not going to complain about it.

Continuing to do something simply because it's traditional with no thought to its current context really isn't something we should be encouraging. Women in law already face enough discrimination without being constantly reminded in black and white that partnership is, by and large, still a boys' club.

An important letter sent to an unknown person should be addressed Sir/Madam. After all, it might be opened by his secretary.

That was a joke.

Sir was OK, but things change and it isn't now. It's only purpose nowadays is to save the writer time by not having to finish their letter with "By the way, I'm a bit of a twat."

I was taught the correct formal address for a letter when you don’t know the person’s/people’s name/s is, “To whom it may concern.” This was in the 80s.

Dear Sirs was backwards and archaic even then.

Btw many companies in my industry have policies to refuse to have dealings with anyone who writes, “Dear Sirs.” I’ve seen letters ripped up unread for starting that way.

Continuing to do something simply because it's traditional with no thought to its current context really isn't something we should be encouraging. Women in law already face enough discrimination without being constantly reminded in black and white that partnership is, by and large, still a boys' club.

@BreastedBoobilyToTheStairs
True. I can't say I can get annoyed by the use of Dear Sirs. But if other women in the legal profession genuinely do see a massive issue with it, then fair enough, who am I to belittle their concerns? I think I had such an extreme experience of the old boys club and sexism where I trained (sexual harassment, being groped, touched, verbally abused, intimidated against complaining, being paid less than men for cop out reasons), that maybe my perspective on sexism is skewed. I'll leave the campaigning against the use of Dear Sirs to those that feel strongly against it, but I guess as a feminist at the very least I shouldn't oppose other women's valid views or belittle them.

Absolutely fine. In any event, if anyone actually cares, they have too much time on their hands.

@AngryRedhead

If you refuse to read/respond to a legal letter, regardless of the title “Dear Sirs”, you should expect to be hauled before the court and face cost consequences.

I’ve never seen/heard this and, if it’s true (which I doubt), anyone doing this is incredibly stupid.

How else would you do a formal letter?

I used to write ‘Dear Sir or Madam’.

Now I write ‘Dear Madam or Sir’.

If you refuse to read/respond to a legal letter, regardless of the title “Dear Sirs”, you should expect to be hauled before the court and face cost consequences.

I very much doubt she meant they tear up 'legal letters', more ones touting for jobs or business.

I'd be inclined to say that anyone making any effort to defend this outmoded sexist form of address has too much time on their hands tbh.