Is it unreasonable for a bunch of white people to debate rationale for higher proportion of BAME people dying from Covid-19?

[TGear]

I am part of a professional group on Facebook. A member has asked why people from BAME communities have a higher number of covid-19 related deaths. It's now just a bunch of white people trying to work this out. Is this totally inappropriate? I want to be sensitive to other people and acknowledge that it's not something I can relate to on a personal level, but equally I feel everyone should be asking the answer to this to support those that are disproportionately affected.

I am sure there is lots of data behind the statistics.

For example:
London has a much more higher proportion of BAME people compared to the rest of the UK
London has a much higher proportion of the cases

So that would affect the statistics

There could be lots of reasons - and anyone who understands data and statistics can take a look - and see if there is an issue - or if it's just a reflection of the general population affected.

From experience Op, a lot of black/Asian people get their backs up against white people for fear of racism

That, in itself, is a form of racism as they are expecting people to behave a particular way because they are white. Expecting racism from a white person is the same as a white person expecting a black person to steal from them because another black person did or expecting a Muslim to be a terrorist because a very small minority have been in the past.

There are a number of issues:

1. there does appear to be a higher rate of deaths among the BME population. Someone needs to do the analysis to work out if that is inline with population level (eg if higher cases in London you’d expect higher bme incidence than south west). This would need individual level data tied with postcode data.

2. there are a number of socio-economic factors that could be in play. Most of those would be known from other health inequalities. There may also be biological factors. These need discussing by the people best qualified to do so.

3. many of the people best qualified to do so will be disproportionately white and probably male. There are socioeconomic reasons for this but probably also years of conscious or unconscious racism. So yes, there will always be white people discussing these sorts of issues but I’d find It alarming if any sort of cross-org group to discuss these issues wasn’t diverse.

So you got a potentially useful question from someone deleted out of worried about being politically correct? FFS. What is wrong with people.

"Sorry your entire group turned out to be most susceptible to it all, we just felt rather colonial discussing the issue. Rotten luck eh."

So, scenario A: Scientific community notices that BAME community are more likely to be effected by covid19. Entire community work together to understand why and find a solution.

Scenario B: Scientific community notices that BAME community are more likely to be effected by covid19. White scientists say "we aren't going to look into this, we're just going to focus on the way it effects white people and leave BAME scientists to figure out how it effects BAME people.

Is it your position OP that scenario A is in fact the more racist one and scenario B represents the desirable woke position? Identity politics isn't just bloody toxic, its also totally devoid of logic.

Is the fact that more BAME people are dying really surprising when you hear that ambulances left an extremely sick black woman at home because her husband was with her?

And you don't think any white people have been left at home and then died too? I've seen more than one.
Fucking ridiculous comment

I'm very surprised by these responses.

OP, you asked if it was inappropriate... I wouldn't use that word, but I think I understand where you're coming from.

I feel similarly when I look at groups of men discussing and trying to interpret abortion data.

Great that they're engaging, but I'd far prefer to have some women involved in the conversation.

And for those of you saying 'it's science and data, anyone can discuss it', I can't help but remind myself that data requires interpretation, and interpretation almost always has a bias.

That's why broad representation in all kinds of groups is a good idea.

OP, it's not unreasonable for this thought to have crossed your mind, and some people on here have been quite shockingly dismissive of, and rude about, your post.

I don't think there's a lot to be done about every individual incidence of what you've noticed here, but it's a good thing to notice and to raise questions about.

Surely this is about distinguishing correlation from causation.

Finding answers that deepen understanding of the virus will help everyone. Anyone capable of looking at the evidence, postulating a hypothesis and researching it can contribute. The rest of us are all entitled to our opinions. My view is that there is no significant genetic or lifestyle contribution. The main cause is that the largest hotspots for he virus are urban areas where people live in closer proximity to others. The ethnic mix in the stats almost certainly reflects the ethnic mix in those areas rather than in the country as a whole. Eg North West London has a very mixed population and a large number of people working at Heathrow, where they ordinarily come into contact with thousands of people every day. By contrast, if you are a farmer in Cornwall or Northumberland, you probably have social contact with a dozen people a week.

Are you suggesting that informal discussions between professionals should be prevented unless they can find someone with the lived experience of the phenomenon they're discussing?

I would suggest that the OP's professional group take some time to wonder why they have no black members. 'Informal discussions' (at the golf club, dinner parties, après-ski, Facebook, Whatsapp) are exactly the means used to exclude 'other' people.

It would be interesting to know how many of the previous posters who thought it was fine were white...

Well it's good that they are interested and raising questions but there is an obvious issue that all white professional groups of researchers don't always have the right understanding of broader health inequalities and lived experience - a bit like when old white men are in charge of things to do with abortion.
So it would be good if the white groups of professionals were
a) trying to diversify that group a bit or at least reflect why it's all white and consider if its a coincidence
b) make contact with some bamer health inequality research groups - of which there are several in the uk

but I’d find It alarming if any sort of cross-org group to discuss these issues wasn’t diverse.

It’s an informal discussion group though.

How/why would you police those? They might only have a handful of people in them.

Official groups that will influence policy I understand. But the OP isnt talking about that.

And for those of you saying 'it's science and data, anyone can discuss it', I can't help but remind myself that data requires interpretation, and interpretation almost always has a bias

True - and then there's the fact that it might well be affecting poorer people as well, so they should be represented as they have a much better understanding of that community as well - intersectionality and all that.

ladybee28
I'd agree, if this was a formal committee or research group, but it's not. It's a group of people in a Facebook group who share professional interests.

Based on the OP's logic, teachers on teaching groups shouldn't discuss strategies and barriers for any group of pupils unless one of us personally fits into that group.

And then there's us whites that have fought for equality and fairness for over 30 years. Sorry for being white.
???

It's not comparable to abortion which for a large majority of woman is a choice they've made. There's no choice here.

I'm not from the BAME community but if there was a disease that affected white people more than others I wouldn't care what colour the scientists were who tried to find out why, that would be nonsensical

@ladybee28

Agree with everything you said but that’s MN for you! A lot keyboard warriors and closet racists.

Are you serious?!

I think if you want to consider racism as a contributing factor you need people from the BAME community to explain how and why. Otherwise you cant say much other noting that it could be a factor. When is comes to science, data, methodology that side of it - it doesnt matter. If you have the knowledge and skills it might save lives.

Facts dont care who discovers them

🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣

FFS you can't even try and avoid Covid-19 without being made to feel guilty about your white privilege.

Finding answers that deepen understanding of the virus will help everyone. Anyone capable of looking at the evidence, postulating a hypothesis and researching it can contribute. The rest of us are all entitled to our opinions

Well said. It is a novel virus and its analysis is evolving. Those qualified to investigate how it affects different ethnicities, why some people exhibit mild symptoms whilst others experience life threatening symptoms should do so.

In my opinion from a cursory look at the situation it is environmental factors: socio-economic conditions, geographical location (London, Birmingham) and bias than genetic predisposition. Black people in the UK and US (where they are minorities) are being more affected by it than white people but in African countries e.g South Africa, Zimbabwe, Botswana where the population is largely black there hasn't been an explosion of cases. The first cases in SA and Zimbabwe were a week to 10 days after the first case here and started locked about 10 days after us and even with extensive testing in SA (and a similar population size) white people have been affected more (tend to be wealthier and tend to travel abroad) and there hasn't been a wildfire even with crowded townships. You may argue they arent or cant afford to test enough but even then none of these countries have had an increase in deaths more than usual even with fewer doctors, nurses and hospitals.

Can only a bunch of women discuss female issues like breast cancer?

Can only a bunch of men research testicular cancer?

The answer is clearly no.

It's their brains and knowledge that counts not their skin tone (or sex). It shouldn't be too hard to understand that.

A professional group on Facebook?

An oxymoron.

@LolaSmiles I totally get your point, and I do agree.

I just don't get the feeling that the OP was actually talking about policing anything.

This now may be ME 'interpreting', but I got the sense that she noticed the lack of diverse representation, felt uncomfortable about it, and expressed that discomfort here.

Not like "This is completely outrageous, stop it at once as a blanket ban across the whole world!" but "Wow, I've noticed this and now it feels weird."

Her use of the phrase 'totally inappropriate' was a bit strong, but the rest of her post actually sounds more nuanced and like she's trying to make sense of an emotion she's feeling.

But then she got sliced open here and won't be back. And frankly I don't blame her.