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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

AIBU to think Angela Rayners comments are very unhelpful?

169 replies

Smileyaxolotl1 · 05/04/2020 18:02

Angela Rayner has said today that it is unreasonable of Matt Hancock to say people shouldn’t sunbathe in parks etc as some people live in flats/ don’t have any outside space.
While I’m sure it is very hard for those in this position, I think her blatant attempt To undermine the guidelines and turn it into a class issue is unhelpful and encourages people to gather outside in public areas directly contravening guidelines.

OP posts:
Watchagotcha · 05/04/2020 21:50

@Smilethoyourheartisbreaking

That’s right: we are allowed to be out for max 1 hr, no further than 1km per day, once a day, for exercise. And there’s no sunbathing - in parks / riversides etc anyway - because they are all closed and patrolled by police. Most people in my city live in apartments.

As for the lockdown lifting? No time soon. The schools won’t be going back until at least 4May, so while they might let some people go back to work or some businesses reopen, we are nowhere near having it lifted.

LangClegsInSpace · 05/04/2020 22:04

I think she's right for once (Shock)

While the government keep highlighting 4 reasons we are allowed to leave our homes, the actual regulations don't say that. They say we must not leave our homes without a reasonable excuse and include a non-exhaustive list of 13 examples of reasonable excuses. The 13th reason is:

(m) to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

We are at the end of winter and most of the population will be deficient in vitamin D to a greater or lesser extent. Those with dark skin are at much greater risk. Vitamin D is vital for our ability to fight off infections as well as preventing many other physical and mental health problems. We're in this for the long haul and we need to do what we can to avoid creating other additional health problems because the NHS does not have the means to cope.

Going out to get sunshine on skin in order to boost vitamin D is a reasonable way of avoiding illness and so falls under (m) and access to sunshine should not depend on whether you have a garden or not, or whether you are capable of keeping moving for the entire time you are out. I have read distressing accounts today of people with mobility issues being harassed by the police because they can only manage a walk with frequent sit-down rests. Are wheelchair and mobility scooter users allowed out? infants in prams and buggies? The ban on sitting down while outside is complete overreach.

Under the current lockdown conditions everybody should be allowed out once a day for general health reasons whether that's exercise or just sitting for a bit in the sun and fresh air. If the regulations don't allow for that then they need amending.

Footage from Richmond Bridge this weekend was shocking but I have seen nothing justifying the closure of Brockwell park. 3000 people in such a vast area over the course of a day in no way compromises social distancing. People's 'crime' was sitting down but this is stupid when you think about it. If you are walking, running or cycling you will potentially come into contact with far more people than if you stay in one place, far away from others.

Imagine you live in Lambeth in a high-rise north-facing flat without even a balcony. Imagine you have dark skin and struggle to get enough vitamin D in the UK even in a normal summertime. Imagine you have mobility issues and can just about manage to walk slowly to the nearest bench in Brockwell park. Should you not be allowed to do that and sit for a while, getting some sun and air?

This is a class issue and a disability issue and a race issue.

We will get stronger lockdown conditions because we are failing to prevent the spread of this virus but that is not the fault of people sunbathing or just sitting down in parks at large distances from each other.

It's because we gave up on finding cases and tracing contacts at an early stage.

It's because we have not closed down non-essential industry.

It's because we expect people with symptoms to 'self-isolate' with the rest of their household and for only 7 days.

Whatever lockdown conditions we impose will just buy us a bit of time, that's all. If we don't use that time to get to grips with finding and properly isolating cases, tracing contacts and properly isolating contacts, then it will be time wasted. It's the only strategy that works anywhere, whether a country has lockdown conditions or not. We can do a helluva lot of this even while we don't have enough tests - WHO reckon that the vast majority of infections are passed on by people with symptoms.

Just flattening the curve and reducing pressure on the NHS will save some lives but actually not that many compared with if we get to grips with preventing transmission. We have already seen just under 5000 deaths, including some very young people and including frontline workers. Nobody so far has died because there wasn't a ventilator available.

YourWinter · 05/04/2020 22:24

I think she comes across as not all that bright actually, but mouthy and determined. I don't think she's someone I'd like to spend time with, but I don't suppose she'd enjoy my company either. That she is Shadow Deputy Prime Minister beggars belief. What Matt Hancock has said is perfectly reasonable as a temporary measure and she should not be so quick to undermine the government's advice.

LangClegsInSpace · 05/04/2020 22:33

Reading back and up to page 3, thank you @Glowcat for your posts.

Thymeout · 06/04/2020 00:18

The one hour limit was an off the cuff answer to a journalist made on the hoof at the beginning of the crisis. I'm guessing it's how long Gove takes to do his usual run. It was a time when politicians were coming out with contradictory statements because it was clear that no one had worked out the details of Boris' position that taking exercise was an essential safety valve for lockdown measures. He never was a details man.

There's a world of difference between Gove and Sarah Vine living in a large house in NottingHill with a garden but wanting something to fill the gap now their gym has closed down and a family with children living in already over-crowded accommodation in a high-rise estate.

Angela Rayner is quite right to point this out. And, no, working class areas in London are not well-supplied with benches in the streets for those who need to pause for a rest before continuing their walk.

Montsti · 06/04/2020 11:41

I really don’t know what people in the UK will do if you have a full lockdown like some other countries including us in South Africa. We are not allowed out of our houses/gardens so no dog walking/running at all...all beaches, parks etc..are closed. We can only leave to buy food, medicine or for an emergency...this is for a minimum of 21 days (am sure it will be extended)...we’re half way through now...

It’s not an ideal situation for anyone, some have it much much worse than others. We are doing it to save lives and to help our amazing doctors, nurses, paramedics etc...

No one is worried about sunbathing and sitting on benches (which obviously one wouldn’t do as the virus stays on surfaces for a long time..). It is not political nor should it be. It’s an international crisis..a pandemic...

The country should be pulling together and listening to the government who are being briefed by experts on a daily basis. It’s embarrassing and quite frankly dangerous when politicians like Angela Rayner cause trouble like this and send mixed messages...so irresponsible.

Montsti · 06/04/2020 11:45

Oh and the sale of alcohol and cigarettes has been banned during the lockdown...

Alsohuman · 06/04/2020 11:50

What’s the rationale for banning the sale of alcohol and cigarettes? Apart from making everyone as miserable as possible?

Montsti · 06/04/2020 11:59

Alcohol - they’re worried about a big increase in domestic violence.
Cigarettes - I would assume smokers and those being around smokers in a confined space have an increased risk of getting worse Coronavirus symptoms...

Neither are essentials..you can drink and smoke if you already have stocked up...but can’t buy anything during the lockdown.

dreamingbohemian · 06/04/2020 12:10

Good post, Lang

I am so thoroughly sick of MNers with nice houses and gardens slagging off anyone who dares to step outside for fresh air and exercise. If you obey the distancing rules, what harm are you causing?

Here in Germany we are allowed to sit in the park as long as we maintain distance and only with the people we normally live with. The German police have no trouble controlling this, is there some reason police in the UK can't do the same?

People say things are better in Germany because people follow the rules, but it's also that the rules are being interpreted very humanely. There is a huge awareness here that total lockdown would also cause suffering and death. Angela Merkel herself said that total lockdown would kill more people from suicide, overdose and abuse than the virus would. So there is no limit on how many times we can go out or whether we can sit in a park, the emphasis is on the distancing.

TSSDNCOP · 06/04/2020 12:23

It is such a shame that less than 48 hours after the Labour Party got organised to possibly present a realistic opposition that Rayner couldn't get past breakfast without causing controversy. Her reasonable point got drowned out by her inability to know when she's made a point and should shut up.

skeptile · 06/04/2020 12:30

I've thought since the very beginning that extended lockdown was a fantasy (or delusion) of the privileged. DS is autistic, we're in a two bed, tiny flat, and life is pretty tough at the best of times, even when we can access his therapies and groups. I'm in a support group of other families with ND kids, and many of us are already breaking. A garden would be life-changing. This is devastating for our mental health. Platitudes about it being 'better than the alternative' sound pretty hollow, tbh.

Twolittlebears · 06/04/2020 12:31

@jacks11 suggest you re-read my posts. I didn't say my family didn't follow the rules. We do. I said people who aren't in our situation shouldn't speculate as to what they'd do in our circumstances.

Alsohuman · 06/04/2020 12:34

It seems the government has spoken to park closing councils and asked them to reopen them. We’ll see what happens.

skeptile · 06/04/2020 12:34

Great post, Lang. Thank you for your humane analysis.

jacks11 · 06/04/2020 12:36

Really, people should be avoiding using benches unless they take very stringent precautions and have no choice but to use them. Same as public transport- use only if absolutely necessary and as little as possible and definitely not if you are high risk. These are the type of things where, if used frequently, could be a source of spread.

I know some people have been wearing gloves, but I am concerned people are being falsely reassured that by doing this they will reduce risk of being exposed/passing it on. Gloves can reduce the risk of catching it but only if used properly all the time- you have to change your gloves every time you touch something for them to work as a preventative measure. Otherwise your gloves are just able to spread the virus in the event they become contaminated, meaning you can still catch it if you touch your face/rub your eyes etc, or you could spread it onto clothing or surfaces (e.g. your door handle) etc which when you touch later allows further transfer and potential to infect.

additionally, if you don’t remove the gloves in the correct way you can spread the virus into your hands at that point. Don’t get me wrong, gloves are useful in preventing contamination but only if used properly. I’ve seen a lot of people using them but very few using properly.

Twila1 · 06/04/2020 13:01

dreamingbohemian
You are not allowed to have a picnic, linger on a park bench or sunbathe in Bavaria.

dreamingbohemian · 06/04/2020 13:07

Yes, Bavaria has stricter rules than most. I'm in Berlin.

They are not overly keen on picnicking here but if you are just sitting in the sun for a while and not close to anyone, they will let it go.

GrumpyHoonMain · 06/04/2020 13:08

She has a very good point. We have a small house but have a car, garden, and live in a safe area where contactless deliveries can happen without fear of theft. I know families of three or four who live in one bed apartments without even a balcony in London- to them going to the park for things others might be able to do at home is essential. Especially in the summer when it gets really hot indoors. I know people who even have to work from home in the park as the heat is stifling in their flat.

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