AIBU to think Angela Rayners comments are very unhelpful?

[Smileyaxolotl1]

Angela Rayner has said today that it is unreasonable of Matt Hancock to say people shouldn’t sunbathe in parks etc as some people live in flats/ don’t have any outside space.
While I’m sure it is very hard for those in this position, I think her blatant attempt To undermine the guidelines and turn it into a class issue is unhelpful and encourages people to gather outside in public areas directly contravening guidelines.

pothole but they would be exercising right? Even with a pause.
Not sunbathing which is the specific point of the thread.

twolittlebears I’m sorry if I upset you but you sound like you are doing a good job and also completely following the guidelines.

It is people like you and your family who will suffer if we go into further lockdown which is why it is so important that people do follow them.

Germany are not on the same point on the curve as the UK and on the surface at least appear to be managing well. I have a German relatives and have lived there myself and that does not surprise me. Their healthcare is excellent and as a nation they have a very “ can do” attitude. Having said that every EU country is testing and reporting their figures very differently, so it is a big mistake to take them at face value.

What will be unwelcome news to some is that their health care is built on an insurance model, doctors effectively run their own business and government is federal, so each area makes its own decisions.

All this talk of guidelines is missing the point that the police can only enforce the law and the law and the guidelines differ whereby the law is far less proscriptive.

Sunbathing isn’t mentioned but that doesn’t mean it’s banned.

I don’t see anything wrong with someone sitting in the sun on a bench or the grass as long as they are social distancing.

I do think it’s a class issue. Some people are tone deaf and have no idea how some people live.

She does make a good point though, that it is fine for those of us with gardens and space to criticize others who don't, and who to to parks to get fresh air / space / a chance to escape

This. All I see on MN is criticism of what 'everyone else' is doing. I live in a small flat with no outside space, it's been boiling today. Not having anywhere to sit in the sun without having to GO outside somewhere is very depressing.

@smileyaxolotl1 But I don't think she explicitly told people to ignore government guidelines. She pointed out that we're asking way more of some people than others. She then went on to make an inflammatory statement about Matt Hancock not self-isolating properly, which was foolish. So now the press have had a field day and have blown it all out of proportion.
From what I read, she didn't tell anyone to flout the rules at all. But you're proving her point about how easy it is for someone with a garden to dictate the rules to those who are having it much harder.

twolittlebears I also don’t think it is self righteous to say I would follow the guidelines if I lived in a flat. I’m a geeky rule follower who always does what I’m told.

OP you are getting yourself all frothed up for nothing... AR did not encourage anyone to flout any guidelines, she merely said there should be discretion in enforcement due to the difficulty faced by those in cramped accommodation. If only you had taken the trouble to think about this you could have saved yourself getting all upset about something that never happened. Perhaps you should volunteer or get a job with the NHS and then you wouldn't have so much time on your hands

FTMF - she said there was nothing wrong with sunbathing if you socially distanced and explained why staying indoors was very hard on some members of society. By suggesting the first thing she was in effect encouraging people to break guidelines.

Well it’s taken her what 28hrs to put her foot in it she is a liability hopefully back to the benches before the next election

Isn’t she aware that some people are unwell for a few days others over a week some their symptoms are are minimal and as long as you have no symptoms and have been free of a high temperature for 48 you can come out from self isolating after seven days. She absolutely should know this.

Keir Starmer will absolutely be supporting the government guidelines as they haven’t been drawn up to gain popularity for the government they have been advised by experts on this matter - give people ideas that they can be reasonable and proportionate you give people the idea they can make up their own ideas of what is right and that simply can’t be left to the public at the moment

We are in a flat with no garden we can still go out for a walk so doing that it’s rubbish and months of this is a depressing thought. I would have loved to have sat outside for a few hours today work is awful at the moment (and yes I would prefer to be at home)

But it is what it is and we have to get on with it

worriedmum I’m a key worker actually. I’m risking my health to keep things going and don’t appreciate politicians making unhelpful comments.

Smileyaxolotl1¥

potholebut they would be exercising right? Even with a pause.
Not sunbathing which is the specific point of the thread

Are you a troll, or do you have the memory of a goldfish?

You posted this today in this thread.
Of they can’t walk that far without sitting down then Unfortunately you will have to make your walk shorter.

worriedmum. and 70% of the vote agree with me so I’m not too bothered about your patronising dismissal of my legitimate concerns.

potholeparadise
Correct - with my first post I was repeating what the law states Technically as people have been moved on But by the second post I was giving my personal opinion. I appreciate I didn’t make that clear.

I've read the statute. It doesn't say anything about people with impaired mobility having to go home instead of resting and continuing.

You just think that is how it should be interpreted.

why can one not sit outside for a bit in the sun. I really missed that bit in the guidelines. Does sitting down (in save distance) make it more likely to catch Corona?

Axolotl, you seem rather stressed and overwrought. Have you thought of taking a stroll round the block? Exercise can be very calming. Don't stop en route though, wouldn't want to encourage any rule breaking here.

Restrictions on movement

6.—(1)During the emergency period, no person may leave the place where they are living without reasonable excuse.

(2)For the purposes of paragraph (1), a reasonable excuse includes the need—

(a)to obtain basic necessities, including food and medical supplies for those in the same household (including any pets or animals in the household) or for vulnerable persons and supplies for the essential upkeep, maintenance and functioning of the household, or the household of a vulnerable person, or to obtain money, including from any business listed in Part 3 of Schedule 2;

(b)to take exercise either alone or with other members of their household;

(c)to seek medical assistance, including to access any of the services referred to in paragraph 37 or 38 of Schedule 2;

(d)to provide care or assistance, including relevant personal care within the meaning of paragraph 7(3B) of Schedule 4 to the Safeguarding of Vulnerable Groups Act 2006(3), to a vulnerable person, or to provide emergency assistance;

(e)to donate blood;

(f)to travel for the purposes of work or to provide voluntary or charitable services, where it is not reasonably possible for that person to work, or to provide those services, from the place where they are living;

(g)to attend a funeral of—

(i)a member of the person’s household,

(ii)a close family member, or

(iii)if no-one within sub-paragraphs (i) or (ii) are attending, a friend;

(h)to fulfil a legal obligation, including attending court or satisfying bail conditions, or to participate in legal proceedings;

(i)to access critical public services, including—

(i)childcare or educational facilities (where these are still available to a child in relation to whom that person is the parent, or has parental responsibility for, or care of the child);

(ii)social services;

(iii)services provided by the Department of Work and Pensions;

(iv)services provided to victims (such as victims of crime);

(j)in relation to children who do not live in the same household as their parents, or one of their parents, to continue existing arrangements for access to, and contact between, parents and children, and for the purposes of this paragraph, “parent” includes a person who is not a parent of the child, but who has parental responsibility for, or who has care of, the child;

(k)in the case of a minister of religion or worship leader, to go to their place of worship;

(l)to move house where reasonably necessary;

(m)to avoid injury or illness or to escape a risk of harm.

(3)For the purposes of paragraph (1), the place where a person is living includes the premises where they live together with any garden, yard, passage, stair, garage, outhouse or other appurtenance of such premises.

(4)Paragraph (1) does not apply to any person who is homeless.

www.legislation.gov.uk/uksi/2020/350/made

pothole it’s also how the police are interpreting it as I’ve seen footage of them moving people on for sitting on their own.
(They may be interpreting it incorrectly though)
The issue is that once you say it’s fine for people to sit and rest during exercise (which I appreciate might be pretty much essential for some people) then we’re into grey areas of how long to sit, do the police have to see you exercising for it to be ok etc.
Grey areas are very difficult.

This is yet another example of the letter versus the spirit of the law. Common sense says if you’re two metres from anyone else it doesn’t matter if you’re standing, sitting or standing on your head. I think Angela Rayner’s absolutely right.

pothole
So I think we can agree that while not explicit a brief sit down during exercise is fine but sitting outside sunbathing is clearly not acceptable according to the statute.

Unless I missed the bit about sunbathing/ sitting outside for sustained periods.

longwayoff
I don’t think I’m unreasonable to be pissed off that we’re likely to go into complete lockdown because people won’t follow the guidelines which have been clearly stated and now posted in the thread and that people like Angela Rayner and others on this thread are justifying ignoring them because they are very hard for some people.

pothole thank you for posting that.
In my opinion it has clarified that I am most likely wrong on the briefly resting during exercise issue but correct on the issue of going outside to sunbathe and Angela Rayners suggesting that the rules should be ignored/ not enforced.

Twoliitlebears

I can only imagine how tough it is for you and people in your position. I’m not trying to be dismissive of the problems faced by those who have no outside space, especially if those who have young children, when I say this. But all the rules apply to everyone.

If this rule doesn’t apply to you and your family, which of the other rules doesn’t? What if someone else finds a different rule causes them difficulties? Can they bend or ignore the rule as or when it suits? And if not, why not?

If everyone gets to decide the rules that they find acceptable and which they don’t, then we might as well just have a free for all. I would also make the point that the virus will not distinguish between those who have a good/special reason for being out and about, nor will it prevent you spreading it to others because you have an understandable reason to be doing whatever it is you feel you want to do.

We have so many issues with people feeling the rules are not applicable to them at the moment (front line worker)- some of those decisions are putting others at risk. Including myself and the people I work with, front line health and social care workers in the community and so on. I know sometimes it has been driven by desperation and/or fear but that doesn’t change the potential implications for others. However, I have to say quite a few problems have been because the individual has felt they have a special reason why the rules shouldn’t apply to them.