...to think that if your child is a bully then you’re a shit parent?

[Calladia]

AIBU?

For some, but not all of them. I used to be friends with someone who was a really lovely, intelligent person and her DH also. Her eldest son was fabulous, her youngest was absolutely awful. I fully expect to see him on the news for some horrific crime when older.

Other children I know are bullies and their parents are really nice, but usually slack and have instilled zero discipline in their child's lives. Other children have horrible, entitled and arrogant parents.

All have one thing in common, they are in denial.

My own children have had a couple of moments of horribleness and when I knew about it where marched straight to the child and parent and made to apologise. They never did it again. One thing I've always had a problem with is the bully as a victim. Yes, I get that but it usually means the real victim(s) get no support as a result and end up with long lasting self confidence issues over being thrown under a bus to save the bully.

Forgot to add that the only time Ive ever seen bullies dealt with is when the parents has banged a very, very loud drum and threatened to deal with it themselves, forcing the school to act.

OP you say good agents know what their child is like but all the evidence is that good parents are the ones who acknowledge we can’t know how our child behaves in every group dynamic we are not part of.
I cannot know for sure my child isn’t part of a group dynamic that leaves others out or is even mean at school or at clubs. Obviously we talk about stuff and I reinforce inclusivity etc but I think it’s best to admit our children act differently away from us.

Should add, only be admitting this can we be open to listening and addressing any bad behaviour we do hear about.

Oh, OP.

I don't know. I may be a shit parent. DS1 has been both bullied and a bully. His behaviour is often atrocious. He has various diagnoses, which sometimes provide an explanation, but never an excuse.

The times I have come down hardest on him have been when he has mistreated others. His 12th birthday was cancelled (party, family coming up, big presents) because he and a friend had engaged in a campaign of behaviour against another boy they disliked which culminated in them stealing his bike and dumping it. I actually got reprimanded by some of the services which support him for the scale of the penalty we applied to him for that: they thought I was OTT, I said I could let an awful lot go but not that sort of cruelty to another child.

I'm sorry for everything DS1 does that hurts others and I promise I try my very best to manage his behaviour and I don't let it go when he engages in bullying. The same as I try my very best to protect him when he is the victim and I don't let it go when he has been bullied- and things have been awful at times, last year I had to face down a gang of older teenagers who came to our house for him.

I was bullied myself. I will always, always react if ds1 bullies others, I wish I could ensure he never does and I am sorry some parents won't accept that their children do terrible things.

@dayswithaY

I believe it begins with a mixture of complacency by the teachers who put it down to ‘girls stuff’. The young people join in initially because it’s fun. You see how girls build trust by confiding in each other...by being part of the group that’s in control you feel accepted. Of course it all turns to shit as the bully has got so much in everyone and the you g people around are terrified on being on the outside of the group so will do anything she says.
The tactic of this particular bully was to involve so many people that it became impossible to pin anything in her.
She’ll probably go on to be hugely successful in life.
Being a truly manipulative and terrible human being doesn’t prevent people from being successful.

I wonder if by labelling a child as a "bully" rather than a child who has done a bullying act we become the "bully" ourselves.

Things are rarely as cut and dry as people make out: If a child lashes out and hits another child who has deliberately shouted in their ear knowing they dislike loud noises who is the bully? To my mind it would be the latter but I imagine that a lot of people would say the former. I am not sure it is helpful to label either child as such though but rather teach them both that the behaviour was undesirable.

Unfortunately bullies might be exhibiting what is to them, normal behaviour especially growing up in homes where the parental role models are arrogant, self righteous, believe themselves to be the victim or mirror behavioural traits exhibited in the child.

That could be you too op?!

It’s far too wide and complicated a thing to decide by a vote or your combative stance.

Many bullies are in distress.

Many children carry out actions that make them feel better without ‘intentionally’ making another’s life hell: young children often developmentally have less ‘theory of mind’ and don’t think that far, or are unable to control their own emotions to lash out.

Of course a victim of bullying is in urgent need of protection and for it to stop. But the cause of the bully’s actions also needs addressing or they will just bully someone else. Problems need solving top to bottom.

Of course, once good parents get to hear their child is bullying another they will want to stop it.

Ultimately my sympathy is with the child who goes to sleep every night worried about what horrors another person's child will inflict on them the next day and not understanding why the adults around them can't or won't put a stop to it

Yes, so is mine.

But that doesn’t automatically mean I label parents bad parents if they have bullied others. But I agree good parents would engage immediately to get such behaviour stopped.

Parents are responsible for everything their child does

So if you have an insecure child with a mental health problem - parents fault? No, sorry. Nothing I did was my parents fault.

How did you teach them about empathy, compassion and respect? I understand all that.and I understand why hurting other people is wrong, and sometimes I do feel bad about it, but other times I just think some people deserve to suffer and hurt. My parents would absolutely disagree with me. They hate this "side" of me.

No.

You're a shittiest if shitty parents if you know your child is a bully and don't deal with it or defend them.

but it doesn't absolve the parents of responsibility to turn the child around.
Sometimes you can't even if you try.

My son is in a specialist school with autism adhd Tourette’s and learning difficulties . His behaviour is terrible - spitting throwing things unpleasant to other children and kicks out hits etc bites staff , says shocking things that he wants to kill people or me . He doesn’t fully understand these things / take consequences on board. This doesn’t make it acceptable. I’m working with school , behavioural specialists and psychologists . He has a psychiatrist. I do not believe my son to be a little angel at all and am always 100% honest of things that occur at home . We are unable to access any clubs . He is 2:1 with carers in the community.
I try my absolute hardest to take him out to try to assist his social skills with basic things like supermarket and also to try and engage him in his interests taking him many places to try to help him acquire these skills through something he enjoys.
I get frequently judged even for the out of the blue shrieking he does. I wish people knew I was doing my 100% best with him.
Never did I think when pregnant I would have a child with these difficulties. It breaks my heart everyday as I question why he behaves the way he does. He is approaching 9 years of age and in a few years it maybe of things don’t improve he will need to go into specialist residential care .
I’m just trying to offer an alternative slant on things that some of us do really care about the impact our children’s behaviour has especially on others . I’m aware it can have an emotional impact on other children’s development and have even brought this up with school to emphasise the importance on meeting the other children’s needs

What a fucking stupid question
Nothing is ever so simple in life. Humans are complex. Behaviour and development are a result of multiple interconnecting dynamic systems including cognition, health, family, environment, neurology, sensory .....
Breaking it down to ‘child A is behaving badly, oh their parents must be shit’ is so basic I suggest that you lack critical insight.

For me, that attitude would have meant no party. You need to get a grip.

Hang on Waxon This was her 4th party.
My then 3 year old suggests not inviting someone and I should say "Right no party for you"
That's a little too harsh.
What I actually did was explain that it was a whole class party and that means inviting everyone and not leaving anyone out.
Her most recent party, no one came because of the Corona Virus. If that makes you feel any better.
I'm sorry if I came across half proud. The look I was going for was "brutally honest"

@starsparkle08 I wouldn't even for a moment argue that this applies to a child with SEN. You are doing an amazing job and please don't think that you are judged. x

It is a massive over-simplification to claim that the only children who don't 'behave decently' are children whose parents 'have not brought them up to be decent people'.

Fwiw my dc are not (to my knowledge) bullies in any way, though they have both to some extent been victims of bullying. As a teacher, I am all too well aware of the damage that bad parenting can cause, and its effect on how kids behave in school. However, it is simply wrong to say that all competent parents would necessarily know if their child were bullying. And it is equally wrong to say that 'bringing your child up to be decent' works in 100% of cases.

My daughter was threatened by another pupil. Mum came down on her like a ton of bricks and looked to be doing all the right things. Child still did it again and Threatened to stab my DD. It's way more complicated that just blaming parents. I have an asd kid who used to be regularly mean and I couldn't take him out places etc. With a lot of work we are over that and he's lovely now. You really really cannot generalise, much as you might want to

Well either you know your child is behaving spitefully and you're not able to stop it, or you know your child is behaving spitefully and you don't care enough or want to stop it. Or alternatively you don't know how your child is behaving because you don't know your child

How are parents supposed to know what is going on in school unless someone tells them?

OP you away and read some articles about nature versus nurture please.

However, it is simply wrong to say that all competent parents would necessarily know if their child were bullying

Actually what I was trying to say was that IMO all competent parents should make it their business to find out how their children are behaving.

To the child who is being bullied I think it is very simple. They don't want to be bullied, they can't stop it themselves and it is up to the adults around them to make it stop. So with whom does the responsibility to make it stop lie?

When I was the parent of a bully, I was disappointed by how little information there was out there to help. Everything was geared towards helping the victim. It seemed to be assumed that parents of bullies WERE shit parents who were in denial or didn't care. Including advice for parents of bullies on the websites that are set up to help victims seemed to me a vital link in the chain, and would have been to the benefit of victims too.
I've been that smug parent who thinks my kids do well academically/aren't fussy eaters/are kind human beings because of something I've done right. Then child number 3 comes along and you do things exactly the same with very different results. Nature is a big part in all this, not just nurture.
Be careful, OP. You may one day be the shit parent of your own definition.

OP while I agree the aim that all parents (should) share is that they want to raise a decent human being. There are sooooo many variables to consider that if your child does bully another child then it isn't neccessarily down to shit parents. Talking purely in terms of mental health no child should take precedence over another. However when it is your child that is on the receiving end of bullying it is only natural that you will put your child first.

@hoodiemum

Did you ever find out why they did it?

Hoodie really? In my experience everyone jumps to the bullies defence and support. When a child pulled a knife on my ds in class he was expected to get on with it. I constantly heard from the school how they were working with the family to support the bully. When my ds tried to hang himself through fear of going back to school he was given an unauthorised absense for missing the day to go to gp for referral for MH support.
What great though is that you tried to get support and accepted it was happening. That makes you a good parent imo. It's not easy knowing your child is behaving in a way that harms others.