...to think that if your child is a bully then you’re a shit parent?

[Calladia]

AIBU?

I'm interested in thoughts on this as a subject, not on my specific situation.

My thoughts are that if your child is intentionally making another child's life a living hell then it is your responsibility as a parent to recognise and stop that.

I'm open to other points of view and that's why I've put the question to a vote.

My DB who I’m NC with as an adult was a bully. Thrown out of every school he attended. He was brought up by the same parents as me in the same home. I have never so much has had one fight.

He has MH issues and whilst they didn’t help the situation, DPs sure as hell didn’t cause it.

I will bite.

My son was hit, punched and slapped by the same child, the school spoke to the parents (didn't speak to me about it) we knew it was going on because my son told me, and then talked to the teacher and found out what they were doing.

The mum found me on facebook and messaged me outlining everything they were doing to stop this from happening, she couldn't explain why it was happening but tbh her message was really nice, in the end they had to remove the child from the school, I don't know the reasons (I am talking 5 and 6 year old) but the fact she put in the effort to find me and reassure me, says to me she is not a shit parent, she got thrown a curve ball in life in her child behaviour and had no clue how to handle it at first

YANBU. I've started noticing bullying traits in my husband and these traits can be seen in his mum and I suspect he mirrored a lot of her behaviour from growing up (she is a single parent). For him, he doesn't know any different, it's what he was used to as a child.

No

Sometimes children behave in this way for attention maybe there has been a death in their family and they struggle to deal with the their emotions and the family are struggling. One parent could be abusive and this is learnt from them no matter how much the other parent tries. A child could have witnessed or been abused themselves and acting out

There are many other reasons

If a parent or parent ignores the issue simply because they believe their child is just spirited or boys will be boys etc sort of attitude then yes that is irresponsible parenting

Yes I can see that there might be many reasons - and very sad reasons behind the behaviour.

Bullies bully because they are damaged.

I'd imagine that's cold comfort for the victims though.

It's interesting that we automatically focus on aggression and aggressive behaviour as a result of abuse.

But what about the more psychological / relational / emotional bullying, often carried out by children from apparently stable families?

Isn't the point that as a parent it is your responsibility to find out how your child is treating others?

YABVVU

My DD was horrifically bullied between Year 4 and mid Year 5 of primary. I'm talking physically held down by two boys twice her weight whilst another kicked and punched her. She would come home and her glasses would be smashed bit she would say she dropped them. She was withdrawn. She would fake being unwell. She had night terrors.
I kept asking what was wrong- the bruises she had were down her back and her bottom and by the time this was going on she was showering without my being there. She kept blaming the work she was doing saying it was hard.
I then got a call from a parent, her dd and mine were friends. Her child was incredibly upset as she had witnessed DD being thrown into a wall. She was also upset as when she told a dinner lady, the woman had asked the boys what was going on and they told her DD was being racist to them, despite both DD and the other child saying what had really happened. Woman didn't look for marks. She just sent both girls in for lying.
DDs back was a mass of scratches and bruises. So we talked and this little shit of a group of 3 boys had been beating her. The ringleader had told her his dad was going to blow our house up or would shoot me if she told.
Obviously I went to the school. They made him apologise. As soon as they left the head teachers office he threatened her. She came home covered head to toe in scratches, he'd pulled hair from her head. Her school dress was ripped. She walked out of assembly like it. She was so angry that I knew as this was the result. It went on months all the while school did nothing. I went to the lea in the end and they involved police and social services due to the bomb and gun threats. His dad actually turned up at pick up one time, he was some roided up boggly eyed loon. Stood opposite me seething.
We took her out the school in the end. She spent some time at home then went to a different primary for year 6.
They were great, dealt with her anxiety, built her confidence. Happy days.

She started secondary and a girl decided she didn't like DD. Threw her into a door. Punched her as well. DD told her head of year. Head of year did fuck all. Then, DD gets pulled out a lesson by deputy head for "swearing at girl". DD gets upset and says she didn't, in fact, she has been punched again by her. Deputy head tells her not to lie or it will be worse for her.
She gets dragged to isolation for an entire day. No previous punishment or behaviour issue. Straight hopped 3 bits of schools much advertised and lauded behaviour pathway.
I raised a complaint as she was meant to be out of school at 3pm and went missing until 3.45, as they had neglected to inform me about this isolation Day.
To DD, she was back to being beaten and blamed. Back to heads of year and deputy heads who were meant to protect her but couldn't be bothered. Old DD would have become withdrawn.
New confident DD took it as a sign that if they weren't going to protect her from assault, she would. So when a lad tried to threaten her to be his girlfriend or else, then pushed her over when she said no, she got up, and whilst he laughed, she punched him.
His parents weren't happy of course, I wasn't either. She got in trouble.
However, her headteacher is marvellous. When we've had a few incidents with her- mostly gob related- she actually sticks up for her. I was in tears at one point last year saying everyone must think I'm a terrible parent,that I don't punish her or I encourage her, which is so far from the truth.
She said no, I don't. We see a kid who is intelligent, but who was bullied in a way an adult would have failed to cope with. She was failed spectacularly by adults at the school who found it easier to blame her or spout "resilience". And then when it happened to a lesser extent at her secondary, they had buggered up as well. It had sent her the wrong message and no one would want to be punched every day for a second time.

It's not always the case that a bully (as the boy who she punched mother was shouting over Facebook ignoring her darling boy was threatening girls with violence if they didn't do as he asked) is due to bad or ignorant parenting. Don't get me wrong, few years back I would have immediately agreed with you. Sometimes it's self preservation after a previous incident. DD now has regular counseling the school arranged and an in school mentor as well. It has helped her a lot.
She's not a bully at all. She just never ever wants to go through what she did before ever again.

YANBU but I’m just here for all the bully apologist messages, especially from the teachers and caring parents who seem to think the child victims are collateral damage of these kids issues.

Some children can bully and also be bullied. I don't think it is helpful to label a child as a bully as not sure who that helps. Different group dynamics can bring out different traits in children. Children can be mean to each other and that can be a useful lesson in learning who is worthy of your friendship. All children deserve the same chance and opportunities to grow into decent human beings. Not sure labelling someone as a shit person helps anyone as it doesn't really attempt to address the issue. Constructive steps need to be taken not name calling.

BiBiBirdie I'm so sorry for you and your DD. I'm glad she's getting counselling. Yes I agree that schools don't help if their approach is to focus on "building resilience" rather than tackling the buying behaviour. Borders on victim blaming.

Morrisonsmania I completely agree.

Of course it's the parents responsibility to manage it. However it's not always as a result of upbringing. I used to believe in nurture over nature. However I have adopted and being involved with children of all backgrounds, there's a lot more around nature. Just by giving a child love and morals etc doesn't always mean that child will grow up to be a decent human being. Plus add asd, adhd, asd etc into the mix, it's not always the parents fault, not 'always'

YANBU but I’m just here for all the bully apologist messages, especially from the teachers and caring parents who seem to think the child victims are collateral damage of these kids issues.

I think you’ve misread the question @Morrisonsmania

We are debating (for some reason OP won’t explain) whether ALL parents of ALL bullies are “shit parents”. Not whether bullies are fabulous little darlings. Clearly they are not.

Being bullied is horrendously damaging and it can be hard to bite back an inappropriate emotional response to the children who do it.

It may often be the case that bullies' parents are bad parents, but not necessarily always. Imo it is perfectly possible for parents not to realise their child is bullying. That doesn't necedsarily mean they are 'shit parents who don't know their child'. Children are often capable of behaving very differently at school than at home.

I think if a parent knows their child is a bully ,and does nothing to stop it ,then yes they are shit parents .
As a child myself ,at the hands of bullies ,it massively effected my confidence and ruined my childhood.
I was a very quiet child and bullied endlessly,the theory in the 80s was to try to get bully and child together to sort out their differences,
I didn’t have any differences,I just wanted to not be attacked on a daily basis.
The teachers forcing this ,them together to sort it out ,caused me as much upset as the bully
I ended up in hospital,after trying to kill myself ...
As a consequence, it massively effected how I parented,
My kids were enrolled in karate ,judo ,kick boxing their whole life ,and I brought them up with the attitude,if someone hits ,you ,hit them back .
Luckily my children ,never did need to hit anyone back ,and were not the shy silent type like me .
So bullying can have far reaching consequences,and is not taken seriously enough in schools

I agree with you, bullies are made many times out of either over indulged children or nice kids who were pushed too much. Where were you when they needed support? How did you teach them about empathy, compassion and respect? Where were you when they started picking and hurting people? What are you doing now?

IME most parents of bullies are parents who think their children fart rainbows, who don’t give shit, are in denial or are bullies themselves. The main thing to fight in this culture is the stupid argument that it is a “phase” and will pass. It doesn’t pass, it just mutates into something more underhanded if you don’t deal with it.

I can only say in my experience when my son ended up at CAMHS because of the effect his bully had on him and his mental health that yes the bully was allowed to bully because his parents thought the sun shined out of him. You tend to find on here there's always someone willing to make excuses for bullies and with a lot of people there circumstances seem to matter more than the actual victims.

YANBU
I'm a teacher, and in the 26 years I've been doing it, though thankfully I've only had a handful of bullies to deal with, every single time that the parents have been called into the various schools there's been denial, accusing others, etc etc. Every time.
It's also true that kids behave differently at home, but let's think about it, how probable is it really, that if the school calls to say your kid is bullying others, it's not true.
I can only speak for the ones I've dealt with, and of course I get that no parent wants to admit that what we are saying may be true, but....
My sympathy lies with the victims.

Hi Arrietty, thanks but I don’t think I misread anything. I don’t think OP is being UR and I’m fully expecting parents to shift the blame from themselves to situations/the victim/the bully themselves and so on and am looking forward to seeing the lengths people will go to not take responsibility for their child 🤷🏻‍♀️ It just a form of denial, nothing special really.

I know my child well, however I know from the teacher she's a totally different child in class and she's also a totally different child when around me compared to not in other situations too - for example if I stay at a birthday party she'll be reserved, probably sit on my knee, won't want to dance etc. Without me she's the life and soul. I know this from photos and reports from parents but how she is in the playground is anyone's guess as you don't get pictures and reports from that and you aren't there. Hopefully not a bully - very doubtful in fact - but you can't state a parent doesn't know their child if they don't know something is going on!

I think YABU to suggest it's shit parenting. It's an angry blinkered view that you'd have when bullying has a direct effect on you, not a properly thought out one.
However I also massively disagree with everyone who claims that all children who bully are victims themselves in some way or another, I truly believe some people are just born bad. Nature, not nurture. Sometimes all the nurture in the world can't seem to change that.

YADNBU

All of those listing other reasons (death, illness, DV in the family) are describing reasons why parenting might have gone to shit. Doesn't mean the parenting isn't shit.

You don't get full marks for effort with parenting.

Ime, the Apple doesn't fall far from the tree.

Parents are either bullies themselves or are ineffectual or in denial.

It's more complex than you suggest OP.

However, what I can't stand is an increasing trend in some areas where people excuse bullying because the bully is really the victim and the proper victims need to sit down, have a hot chocolate with the bully and understand the bully more. No, just no.

If a child who bullies has their own issues and baggage then support needs to be put in place for them, but that is separate from them being unpleasant to other children. Other children shouldn't be made to feel responsible for another child's emotions and actions.

@ArriettyJones I'm not a believer that a bully =shit parents but could your example not be ome of shit parenting? Not the mother, but the life the dad has created for the child? Parenting isn't just about what we consciously teach our children. It's the lifestyle we creare and examples we unintentionally set.
I ibviously don't know the details of the example you mentioned. But it's just a thought.