To expect Mumsnet NOT TO ALLOW OPENLY RACIST THREADS TO STAND UNDELETED?

[Hurlyburly]

Hmm? Well AM I?

If someone tells me not to click on the FUCKING thread in question, I think I will explode. Racism should have no place on Mumsnet.

"Whether you like it or not there are a lot of people in this country who feel forgotton and whose views are becoming more and more extreme because they feel that white people don't count."

Well racism is usually synonymous with some form of deprivation. Financial. Educational. Shortage of brain cells. That sort of things.

So where there are areas that have become more impoverished, and people feel disempowered or "forgotten", then racism is likely to be on the increase.

Doesn't mean that they are right, or that they should be tolerated. It is a point of view that actually should be unacceptable in this day and age.

The practice of tolerance and toleration of other people's view points, should not extend to the point of tolerating nutty viewpoints that others find genuinely offensive.

You don't expect racism and xenophobia on a parenting website. You shouldn't expect it, either.

Hurly, I honestly don't see that the views you have cut and pasted are "nutty" tbh.

this for example:
"I fear an emphasis on the evils whites did to blacks feeds notions of victimhood among black children who should instead see they have great opportunitiies if they choose to seize them."
one might not like the way that is expressed, but there is a legitimate view in there. it isn't "nutty" and I can't see it should be suppressed. what would be the point?
the point about tackling racism (or other prejudice) is not to censor people's view and stamp out debate but to tackle people's views head on with logic.

ok i agree that everything should be tolerated except intolerance. let's get that clear for starters.

but on the whole white british people are very tolerant and welcoming to incomers. as they should be.

i think part of it is that when that tolerance and acceptance is very publicly rejected ( i'm thinking 7/7) it's only natural for ordinary,people of other cultures to start wondering what the point is.

as a white, middle class, lefty londoner, who worked in barking and dagenham for many years i feel i'm qualified to make this point.

and actually its far more to do with culture/religion than colour in most instances. For some, less intelligent people it becomes more about colour because it's an obvious thing to focus on. and actually i think the person who wrote the o/p on the other thread was more concerned about cultural differences than colour. she just didn't articulate herself very well.

ive gone way off the point haven't i?

Whatever day and age it is doesn't make a great deal of difference, hurly. People don't evolve in quantum leaps from one generation to the next. Individuals may evolve, but societies generally don't. The only thing that changes are the toys we get to play with.

Modern day manners deem it unacceptable to say racist things, but it doesn't follow that people aren't thinking them.

If racism is to be understood, then it must be discussed and analyzed without fear of the witch hunt

And I would point out again, that it isn't just the British who are culpable. All nations, all races on earth are equally as guilty as the next.

No you haven't still - it's all germane.

Harpsi - a poster on the other thread made a very good point - about racism having certain "calling cards". Like starting a sentiment with "I'm not a racist but.." almost invariably is a preface to a racist comment.

The whole sentiment about victimhood among black people is one of those calling cards. It's about not acknowledging racism, about it being somehow pathetic to complain of it, somehow symptomatic of a victim mentality. Thereby rather neatly putting the problem onto the "whingeing blacks" ...

Where's martianbishop?

Erm, dunno. Not in here... Should she/he be?

hurly, are you saying that anyone expressing an opposing view or making a comment e.g. about victim culture is automatically a racist?
I cannot believe such intolerance, name calling and closed mindedness can be the way forward. deleting threads because you don't agree with their contents is pure censorship and I ask you again - what purpose does this serve?

Good grief, Hurly ... the expert on what makes a person a racist. They could have done with you during the Spanish Inquisition.

Martianbishop was on Aitch's thread talking about how one would react to racist threads. She was using that as an example of what to do about threads you strongly disagree with. She had some good arguments.

Harpsi - I didn't realise that you has asked me what purpose my thread served - but since you have ...

This is a parenting forum. It's also a discussion forum. All things are discussed and open for discussion.

There are some subjects where people have extreme views that are hurtful and offensive to others.

A subject that I find particularly offensive is racism. I had no idea that openly racist and xenophobic threads would be acceptable on a parenting forum. I am surprised and hurt to find that it is acceptable.

germane?

Anyway, think desiderata said it well in her last post

Oh and I am shocked at the N word being used by witch...

Um, the N word here was used by hurlyburly...

I don't often leap to the defence of the Dull Witch but there's a first time for everything.

Oh fluffy, I did a search for martianbishop and I came across this post of his/hers:

"so if you came across a group of people taking part in racist banter, the best way of stopping them would simply be to abstain?

You could, of course, argue that the best way to stop it would be to enguage, but that has been tried and fans the fames, and frankly I can't cope with the nausea that 'debating' would cause me.

this is my way of doing what I can"

And I think I agree with her

Kerry - Would I still be lynched in Arkansas? It doesn't sound very nice to me.

I meant
this post by desi:
Desiderata on Mon 10-Sep-07 13:26:28

by the time I had posted she had already posted more...

I don't think that deleting the thread will help in any way. Anyone who is likely to feel threatened by racism should read that thread and see that the majority of posters jumped on the OP for her poorly expressed thread title and the sentiments it appeared to show. Isn't that a good thing?

I live in the south-west where most of the people I see day to day are white. I used to work with a young chap who gave as one of his reasons for leaving the area that 'it was rascist'. As he was whiter than white, middle class and well-educated I can only assume he had no experience of being the subject of racism personally. He was objecting to it on principle, like living next to a sewage works. It made me cross with him TBH. My feeling being that if right-minded people, who don't suffer from racism themselves, turn their noses up at racism like a bad smelll and act as if it's not their problem and refuse to take issue and argue their case, it won't ever get any better. Deleting the thread because it's offensive is doing just that.

am, I just checked...and the first N mention was done by Dull witch in her post:
TheDullWitch on Mon 10-Sep-07 11:33:48
Hurlyburly : you are the thread Nazi who cannot cope with (or maybe does not understand) an honest debate.

will check again, but I don't think I had heard any mention of it until that post...

No, hurly used it in an earlier post which mn have deleted.

3and

I have to confess I used the Nazi word first about those posts on another thread.

In my defence, I didn't know it was forbidden, and they were.

I do not think that deleting the thread is the right thing to do.

What is that doing? Is it changing minds? No, it is simply removing it from our sight. Out of sight out of mind?

"They came for the Jews and I did not speak out......"

Do not throw your hands in the air and scream "erase the words, erase the words"

Instead, use your words to educate.

This thread is now almost amusing. Sad ranting/reasoned debate and ne'er the twain shall meet.

Cyber Hyde Park corner.

oh right...I thought I was loosing my marbles here....

Oh and usually it's used to describe bresatfeeders, btw...

Breastfeeders are Nazis? Really? Gosh.

Mytwopence

I refer you to the inestimable Martianbishop's post on another subject entirely.

The issue I have with about engaging with people like that is that it makes me feel sick to my stomach.