To think positive birth movement is a cult?

[auslass]

Recently I went along to a positive birth movement talk (mostly because they had free cake - don't get between a pregnant lady and carbs), and honestly I found the whole thing a bit cultish.

The women they had talking were all " no pain relief, I wanted to feel everything" heroes. And they had a midwife up talking about why everyone should be considering homebirths, and why we should all think about not having any drugs at all.

Is it just me or does just seem like another way of layering pressure on women? I want my pain relief and am sure of that, but when I brought up pain relief's place in PBM the midwife instantly explained all that could go wrong with pain relief. I get there a risks; but there are risks with no intervention births too right?

AIBU? Is it just me who thinks these groups have a responsibility to educate on all the options? Especially if they have midwives present?

There is so much pressure on women when pregnant & afterwards, there is no wonder so many suffer PND. From the moment you get the positive test it is like your body & mind are no longer your own, there is constant pressure to have a perfect pregnancy & birth & to become a perfect mother, there is so much emphasis on the myth that being a mother is instinctive, that we all have that maternal gene just waiting to be handed a baby. For lots of women myself included there is no maternal feeling, all I felt after being handed ds was shock & horror, shock that my body hadn't done what it was supposedly designed to do & horror for what I had been through. If someone had said to me that they would take my baby & I never had to see it again, I would have handed him over in a heartbeat, I felt no maternal bond with the creature I had created, there was no rush of love that everyone spoke about, every time I looked at him all I could think about was the pain & distress I had suffered trying to get him out.

I'm with AlmostAlwyn.
I read the Positive Birth Movement book, and Ina May's Guide to Childcare (among other things like Mindful Hypnobirthing).
I don't think the PBM is a cult. I do think that women should take more of an active interest in their birth choices though and not let everyone else tell them what to do. My sister didn't make a birth plan for either of her children (and both weren't very nice births, and one required intervention). When I made my birth plan she was amazed about the fact you could ask for things like optimal cord clamping, that you could refuse to have a sweep, you didn't have to have them checking your dilation and that you didn't have to be induced etc. I feel like their's a lot of pressure on women to do things a certain way, and they go along with it as they don't want to make a fuss or don't know they have alternatives.

that you could refuse to have a sweep, you didn't have to have them checking your dilation and that you didn't have to be induced etc

I always find it disturbing just how many women think you HAVE to have these procedures and no right to say no, many of which involve people putting fingers into your vagina fgs. You don’t lose basic human rights in pregnancy.

From what I’ve seen the PBM does a lot to inform women of these rights. Safety in birth isn’t incompatible with dignity, autonomy and respect.

@SirChing for some women, giving birth at home does mean they have more control over the outcome. Even NICE conducted research which showed that (healthy, low-risk) women having a second or subsequent birth at home were less likely to have interventions compared to a hospital labour ward.

In the case of baby becoming stuck or "failure to progress" (though it would be interesting to look at the reasons why labour has stalled), no one is arguing that staying at home is the best thing for mum and baby.

for those who bang on about the pain being manageable if only we understood the physiological processes - there are physiological reasons why some births hurt more than others. Understanding them doesn't stop them hurting, which also no one is arguing. But there are so many women who don't know the physiological process, and have seen all the movies and One Born Every Minute, so are under the impression that birth involves screaming and someone yelling "push! Push!", they've got no idea that birth is designed to be manageable, and can be manageable in the right circumstances - which sometimes you have to fight for and which sometimes are absolutely outside your control.

Yours sounds very different to the PBM i went to. I went specifically cause it sounded not culty and a way to be find out all my options in a balanced way and thankfully it was.
I went to a meeting on induction and found it very balanced about medical and late term inductions, what the options were, how to make it a positive experience as well as discussion about how to refuse it if that's what the woman wanted. They went through the available evidence as well which i found really useful.
I guess it varies by group. I'm glad i went to a nice one it made me feel much more positive about the medical induction.

@SirChing amongst low-risk women there is evidence that staying at home means they’re a lot more likely to have a straightforward birth than going to hospital (with the same chance of good outcome for baby and mother). Obviously hospitals are recommended and safer for other women in other situations, but it does show how the place of birth can influence how your birth goes, so it isn’t all purely down to luck. It’s important women have this information when choosing where to birth.

Yep. Cultish and fucking bonkers.

I say a big fuck you to nature and goddessy woo nonsense.

To me, a positive birth is a calm and painless one.

I think PBM is great! Really helped me feel prepared and calm and I have had all lovely positive births. Luckily I was low risk so had water births at home. I was pleased with my births as that is what I wanted. All my labours have been under 2 hours, the last one under 1 hour, so I genuinely don't need drugs for such a small amount of time. It is equally ok to want epidurals and labour ward births too, I may have opted for this if I was 36 hours in labour... we don't all have to want the same birthing experience. If I am honest I couldn't give 2 shits what drugs other women did or didn't have as long as they feel they were looked after properly during labour and got the experience they desired or the experience that was necessary to keep everyone alive and safe.

''It makes sense to me that birth is not designed to be horrific with unmanageable pain.''

Uh, it kinda is. A horrific birth with unmanageable pain is an evolutionary compromise, the price we pay for bipedalism.

I have no experience on this specific thing, but I do know that people with a tendency to cultic thinking will make a cult out of absolutely anything.

Take from it what you want or what you think might be useful for you (if anything), discard everything else. Above all, keep some balance.

The real positive birth movement shouldn't make you feel like that. The whole point is to EMPOWER women and make them go through less pain, so I think this is just the women you mixed with. Hypnobirthing and home birthing is something that has helped a lot of people with anxiety. Hospitals for healthy, normal births often do not!

I find it all a bit frustrating and believe it sells false expectations.

I had an assisted birth because of babies position and had some bad damage (third degree tear and episiotomy). Someone suggested to me that hypobirthing is empowering and reduces complications. I think it’s a bit insulting to suggest that a sound track would have made my DC come out at less of an angle and save the day! We’d both be dead if we didn’t have medical intervention.

It’s just another way to heap pressure on women. I ended up being classed as high risk and it was actually almost a relief to have some of the pressure for the all natural, no pain relief, whale music and water type birth taken away from me. I had a positive birth experience in a hospital room with a lovely, lovely epidural and no one gets to suggest my birth was in some way negative because of those things.

"Hypnobirthing and home birthing is something that has helped a lot of people with anxiety. Hospitals for healthy, normal births often do not!"

@Stripeyshirts2450 you make it sound as if home births and hypnobirthing are one thing and hospital births are another completely separate thing altogether - this isn't the case. I had a hypnobirth in hospital.

I tend to agree. I spent a lot of time around a positive birth doula through classes and yoga throughout my pregnancy. And whilst she was great and empowering I also became fixated on having a water birth and everything natural. I was so disappointed when I got told I was consultant led and then ended up being induced, spinal block and forceps in theatre. I look back and everything I learnt seems like a waste of time.
I think woman should be aware of all the options, risks and be able to make informed decisions. Each to their own. But you're not a failure if you have an epidural! It was the one positive in my birth, absolute calm washed over!

It’s just another stick to beat women with, and another thing to write books about and sell classes for.

I would've loved a natural birth but it didn't work out like that for me. Some people will never understand because they have had a completely different birth experience and they think anyone can achieve the amazing birthing experience they had.

'There is so much pressure on pregnant women and afterwards' - only if you let it - its not my experience

@auslass
Please don't let my post put you off, my experience may be an isolated case and is representative of that person's viewpoint. The yoga teacher near you may have very different views to mine

@Bluewater1 not to worry! I get bored in yoga anyway, would rather weight train or nap.

@cavabiensepasser

A horrific birth with unmanageable pain is an evolutionary compromise, the price we pay for bipedalism

Not sure what your evidence for that is. Outdated ideas that the human pelvis is too narrow for human babies in order to enable bipedalism (the "obstetric dilemma") are just that, outdated. More recent research has suggested that there's actually a large variation in birth canal size in humans, so many women are able to birth large babies with no issue - if the circumstances are right, ie not lying on a hospital bed on their back in a brightly lit room with a team of doctors looking at a monitor and shouting when to push. This research also indicated that metabolic limits might be a factor in why human babies are born when they are (search for Holly Dunsworth and 'Metabolic hypothesis for human altriciality').

But birth is not designed to be horrifically painful. It is controlled by oxytocin, the love hormone, the feel-good hormone, the one your body produces during social bonding, sex... and birth. If it's allowed to work properly, it induces a feeling of calm, reduces anxiety and stress, and relieves pain. How does that match up with the horrific, unmanageable pain involved in the so-called "compromise" for bipedalism?

Birth is a bit about choice and a lot about circumstance. But knowledge is power. Interventions do tend to lead to more interventions. It doesn,t make them wrong but it is good to know risk vs reward as such.

Outdated ideas that the human pelvis is too narrow for human babies in order to enable bipedalism (the "obstetric dilemma") are just that, outdated. More recent research has suggested that there's actually a large variation in birth canal size in humans, so many women are able to birth large babies with no issue

What a shame my DD didn't know that. Sadly for me, her head was in the 99th percentile and once she was delivered by emergency C section, the Obs said to me that there was never a hope of her being born naturally given the disparity with my pelvis size. Aside from having a giant head, she decided to jam it into my pelvis at a strange angle which she couldn't be moved from. Coupled with the fact that my cervix is totally unresponsive to induction but she needed to come out, and i had made it to 4 cm after 35 hours, and I really don't think a natural birth would have left either of is anything but dead. That's what the consultant said anyway. And I kind of believe him.

so many women are able to birth large babies with no issue so what about those of us who aren't? What do you suggest?

@glitterstarsshower would birthing at home have made my DDs head smaller or my cervix wider?