To think positive birth movement is a cult?

[auslass]

Recently I went along to a positive birth movement talk (mostly because they had free cake - don't get between a pregnant lady and carbs), and honestly I found the whole thing a bit cultish.

The women they had talking were all " no pain relief, I wanted to feel everything" heroes. And they had a midwife up talking about why everyone should be considering homebirths, and why we should all think about not having any drugs at all.

Is it just me or does just seem like another way of layering pressure on women? I want my pain relief and am sure of that, but when I brought up pain relief's place in PBM the midwife instantly explained all that could go wrong with pain relief. I get there a risks; but there are risks with no intervention births too right?

AIBU? Is it just me who thinks these groups have a responsibility to educate on all the options? Especially if they have midwives present?

@Bluewater1 was just about to check out some yoga classes. Maybe I'll just stick to the gym. God anti vaxxers...don't even get me started.

Remember that time we all got polio? Nope.. because we all got vaccinated. Lol.

That's not what cult means.

But there are lots of ways to give birth, choosing a less natural way doesn't mean your labour and birth is "less worthy". If your baby's come out you've given birth!

For me, the positive birth movement is about being informed and being an active participant in your own birth. So many women don't have any idea of the physiological process going on and trust midwives and doctors to tell them what to do according to some imagined schedule.

It makes sense to me that birth is not designed to be horrific with unmanageable pain. It's governed by oxytocin - the feel-good hormone! No one is looking at pain relief options before running a marathon... I guess it's just a bit more tricky to "train" for birth in the same way.

I believe some positive birth movement midwives and practitioners become passionate about their cause, which might be where you get the "cult" feeling from. But they're up against the massive juggernaut of patriarchal medicine. You'd have to be passionate to continue to educate women on the processes going on in their own bodies when most doctors think they need to be told when and how to push.

Don't forget it's not as simple as "pain free medicated birth" on one side and "suffer in agony to get your natural birth medal" on the other side.

The birth for which I chose to accept all interventions and pain relief was vastly more painful than the birth for which I chose to have a home birth with "natural" pain relief. Because it's not a case of simply rocking up to the hospital when you get your first contraction and instantly getting an epidural. It's often a case of helplessly going through all sorts of stress and agony first before finally getting that sweet relief... Whereas with this "positive birth" stuff, you are in somewhat more control and equip yourself with other ways of coping.

So I wouldn't say the positive birth stuff is a backwards barbaric cult. Hospital births with lots of interventions are just as barbaric. Let's face it, birth is messy and hard either way.

Well I can see why your yoga teacher wouldn't want to frighten women who are about to give birth @Bluewater1 but there's being positive about all birth experience,s and being realistic ,both my births were fairly awful long drawn out affairs ,but I'm aware my experience isn't everyone's experience ,and despite my fairly traumatic Labour's my babies were born safely .

A positive birth is whatever YOU determine it to be. I did a hypnobirthing course and focused a lot on ensuring however it unfolded that it would be positive - regardless of if we got the birth we wanted. It’s such a monumental and huge experience to go through, why shouldn’t/can’t it also be positive? And that goes for any birth - ALL births can be positive.

It sounds like you went to the wrong group for you OP.

I didn’t experience this but I did find NCT horrendous in their criticism and fear no feting of drugs.

I do think there should be more talk about positive and empowered births in general, whatever that looks like to the woman. Mine was great. But you almost always here the horror stories focused on.

@AlmostAlwyn I was well informed, did two separate classes, read books, did loads of yoga ball/stairs/hiking/yoga, perfectly aware of the physiological process. I had a horrendous labour. I guess my oxytocin just doesn't work well enough.

I think anyone who tries to kid themselves that they can somehow train their way out of a painful birth is having a laugh honestly. It's the luck of the draw. There's a reason most women aren't raving about how awesome birth is and that's because mostly it just isn't.

@LoveIsLovely sorry your birth wasn't what you wanted. Obviously, without any details it's difficult to say, but, no, a birth described as "horrendous" doesn't sound conducive to the production of oxytocin. That's not to say it's your fault or you did something wrong, however.

I think you're much more likely to hear negative things about birth than positive, but I don't agree that the reason for that is because birth is designed to be an unpleasant and harrowing experience. Many have a bad experience due to the medical environment (heath care providers unfamiliar with physiological birth, understaffing, cuts to services, mistakes being made) and birth being made harder due to current lifestyle norms (more sedentary, more time spent reclined on sofas, sitting in cars, at work, etc). But positive birth stories do exist if you actively search them out, and are important in changing your mindset.

I’ve had four DC and the most positive birthing experience was the elective CS I had with DC4 . My vaginal births were fucking traumatic.

@AlmostAlwyn All I did for 8 months before giving birth was look up positive birth stories. How is that supposed to have helped me?

I feel like all it did is make me think it wasn't going to be as painful as it was. Breathe through it? You might as well try to mop up the Atlantic with a tea towel.

I'm not in the UK, I went to a super expensive hospital, tons of staff, all the right equipment (bath in the room, privacy blah blah). I am far from sedentary, I hike, I cycle, I do yoga, I don't have a car so I lug groceries home from the supermarket twice a week.

My mindset was positive as fuck going in. That doesn't change what happened in the room. People like you just shame women into thinking it was their fault for not being 'positive' or healthy or fit or whatever enough. It's such total bs.

One the positive birth stories was a lady who wanted a drug free home birth, as is her right, and her choice. However, her placenta did not come away within the expected window of 15 mins. She was offered medical intervention at the time but refused, and ended up having to go to hospital and have it removed in theatre. I told my midwife about it and she said if she had of taken the injection she wouldn't have needed surgery.

I wonder how well informed she was about the options. She did have a doula though who was verrryy into drug free home birthing. So who knows.

Here’s an article by the founder of the Positive Birth Movement- -‘Any woman who wants a c section on the nhs should get one- no questions asked’

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.telegraph.co.uk/health-fitness/body/any-woman-who-wants-a-caesarean-on-the-nhs-should-get-one---no-q/amp/

I don’t think it’s a natural birth cult- I just think movements that seek to promote autonomy and human rights in women are too often dismissed as ‘dangerous’ or a cult

I think it very much depends on the meeting facilitator.
I’m involved in my local PBM group and have been since I was pregnant with DC2.
The whole ethos of PBM is supposed to about educating women about all of their options, helping them to make informed, educated choices, helping them to know and fully understand their rights to accept/decline any procedures offered and then support whatever decisions they make. It’s not supposed to be a “natural drug free birth” cult....but I hate to say some facilitators have made it feel that way
Our facilitator is fantastic though. We had one lady come to the group when I was pregnant with DC3, who knew 100% she wanted to go straight into the labour ward and get an epidural at the earliest opportunity. She was presented with all the pros and cons, risks of epidural etc, to ensure she could make a fully informed choice. She still decided those options were the right ones for her, and she was supported whole heartedly by all of us.
While those options sound like hell on earth to me, it’s not my birth! It’s her’s.
Birth isn’t a “one size fits all” process!

And I make my above comment as a “drug-free homebirther” 🤷🏻‍♀️

Absolutely absurd, I always wanted the max pain relief preferably epidural during birth. Told my midwife and doctor that I had NO intention of doing it naturally and was extremely distressed that I had to lie there screaming for an epidural and threatening to sue the whole damn lot of them when that was what I had asked for right from the beginning.
The stress of it spoilt the whole thing for me. I had planned my birth and I expected that plan to be honoured, not to have to argue with a bunch of natural birth fanatics on the day.

@LoveIsLovely I guess you missed the bit where I said it wasn't your fault and you didn't do anything wrong?

I can't make any further comment on your situation without any details (which I am not asking for). I feel like you're quite angry about it though.

Positive birth stories (and the positive birth movement in general) help many women who are afraid and anxious about birth. Just because it didn't help in your case, doesn't mean it's not a valuable tool and that it should be dismissed completely as made up nonsense.

Was just remembering when my MIL asked about my birth preferences and I said "all the drugs plz" and my FIL looked at me with complete disbelief, like I was crazy not to want to feel the pain.

MIL is is still on about how all that's needed is deep breathing.

Clearly drugs = birth of crazy future drug addicts.

Is PBM different to the positive birth company hypnobirthing- I think the latter is who I did hypnobirthing with and wasn't my experience that it was not supportive of meds and interventions

@Newmumatlast yes, they are different things

Positive birth is about being open to all forms of pain relief and asking for it to be made available if required, but not using it until it’s required (if at all). You are encouraged to question your doctors’ decisions so they are forced to explain things to you and remain mentally present during the birth as that can reduce the risk of ptsd.

I kind of agree. I went to pregnancy yoga and the teacher was just brilliant. She taught us about movements, positions, breathing etc that might help in labour. But she was also very clear that a lot of it was down to luck. Her advice was to be informed of all the options, go in with our preferences if we wanted, but also to be flexible. She said that if we ended up in stirrups and strapped to a monitor, we hadn't failed and we could still use the breathing exercises and visualisations!

I think it's cult-ish to imply that if you practice yoga, hyponobirthing etc then you definitely won't need drugs or interventions and that you've failed if you do. Yes we probably do overly medicalise birth to some extent. But in countries / past times where natural birth is/was the only option, many women die(d) or had terrible complications such as fistula. We should embrace the medical options where they are needed!

So much of birthing is down to luck.

Some women who don't have issues during home births can tend to come across as if they had some sort of control over the outcome and as if they "thought" themselves into a wonderful experience through sheer willpower. But if they don't dilate or baby gets stuck, you will need interventions or both mum and baby are likely to die. You can't "think" your way out of that.

Its luck. There is a reason why we have a relatively low rate of maternal and infant deaths in this country. That reason is hospitals. If people want to do it away from there, crack on, but don't make out like it's something controllable by mindset.

Oh and for those who bang on about the pain being manageable if only we understood the physiological processes - there are physiological reasons why some births hurt more than others. Understanding them doesn't stop them hurting!

@SirChing completely agree! I'm doing hypnobirthing because I believe lots can be achieved through staying calmer and not stressing out. But I'm still having my god damn drugs!