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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

723 replies

HollyGoLoudly1 · 01/03/2020 12:03

A 23 year old is taking legal action against the NHS for giving her treatment to transition to male as a teenager. She has since decided to live as a female and is taking legal action against the NHS as they should have 'challenged her' more when she wanted to transition rather than giving her the treatment.

The NHS can't do right for doing wrong here. Cash strapped to the point of collapse and being sued for giving someone the treatment they asked for. I despair.

AIBU or is this absolutely ludicrous?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
from MNHQ - this title and OP originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
needmorecoffeeandcake · 01/03/2020 13:40

Surely the emphasis should be on helping young people to be comfortable in the body they have rather than thinking that adjustment (adding or removing or re-shaping) of their primary or secondary sex characteristics is the key to happiness? Too much emphasis on what their physical body looks like!

LittleCabbage · 01/03/2020 13:41

YABVVVU. This woman was a child, with mental health difficulties. The Tavistock decided to encourage her down a poorly evidenced treatment pathway, leaving her body permanently mutilated.

The NHS in general is fantastic, and I am so grateful for it. But this particular area has been grossly negligent. There are many more young women like this one, and she is brave to speak out.

eurochick · 01/03/2020 13:41

For the people questioning the money being spent on this case by the nhs, you do realise that transitioning makes someone a patient for life? The nhs will be paying for drugs for life for that individual. That's without considering the increased risk of health problems associated with these medications and the nhs having to pick up the tab for those down the line. If Keira is successful this case should actually save the nhs a hell of a lot of money.

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 13:42

@BritneyPeedOnALadybug I'd love to hear your theory if you'll share it.

I wish the op would be changed because I think I lot of the "yanbu" voters believe the NHS is being sued which is not what's happening.

BorneoBabe · 01/03/2020 13:43

Person, maybe. Child? YABVU.

LittleCabbage · 01/03/2020 13:43

I think the 50/50 split may be due to how you worded the OP as I voted YANBU whereas having reread your post I should have voted the other way.
Looking at all the responses on the thread very few agree with you.

This.

datasgingercatspot · 01/03/2020 13:45

Why is the NHS even offering this treatment in the first place?

Because the trans lobby believes its agenda is a no. 1 priority, has pushed loudly accordingly and convinced the sheeple that any other thought or action is transphobic/TERF/abusive/criminal, etc.

LittleCabbage · 01/03/2020 13:46

If one of the women given a totally unnecessary double mastectomy by that "rogue" breast surgeon (who was struck off) complained about her treatment, would you say she was being unreasonable?

Similar situation in that patient followed medical guidance, which turned out to be very, very wrong.

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 13:49

I love the part where she said she wasn’t willing to speak to anyone who may have tried to talk her out of it and it was 100% what she wanted yet now she’s suing?!

She isn't suing. And sometimes it's the job of certain people/institutions to tell people things that they don't want to hear. When my friend got to a critically low weight due to anorexia she was forced to go to a recovery centre, not affirmed in her belief that she needed to lose more weight.

BaolFan · 01/03/2020 13:50

The aim is not to deny children with gender dysphoria good care or to demonise the trans community. It’s about shining a light on clinical decisions, ethics of consent and working out what best clinical practise should be. And that’s got to be done away from the heat of the special interest groups, lobbyists and anyone with an agenda that doesn’t centre the health and well-being of the child

This. Absolutely this.

Britney there was a good article in the New Atlantic (I think?) about big pharma involvement. TBH nothing would surprise me.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 13:50

OP, please ask Mumsnet to edit your title. Keira Bell isn’t suing anyone and is not making a claim for compensation. She’s just asking the law to look at the current situation at the Paediatric Gender Identity Clinic in order to reduce the likelihood of other teenage girls having unnecessary double mastectomies and life altering hormonal treatments.

AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]
BaolFan · 01/03/2020 13:50

Incidentally for those who have already voted - you can change your vote. Just click on the buttons again.

DesLynamsMoustache · 01/03/2020 13:52

There's a duty of care here to vulnerable young people that I think was breached, partly I suspect because of the climate around trans rights and probably the fear that rejecting her would end up in some sort of media shitshow. That said, this was seven years ago(?) so not quite the same kind of world we are living in today with regards to trans rights and activism. I worry that fear of reprisals means that decisions are being made that aren't necessarily right or proper for the individual, but because the consequences can be quite difficult to weather.

BritneyPeedOnALadybug · 01/03/2020 13:52

Ok. As I said people will probably laugh and tell me to stop being so ridiculous but keep in mind people say the exact same argument about Brexit and politics in America especially, and I’ve seen loads of people say this even on this site.

I had the thought that it might be a long game from countries on the other side of the world where they definitely do not allow this sort of thing to happen to their own children. Rates of this happening are rapidly rising all the time, especially in the last few years, and we’re finding out that children being pumped full of hormones or drugs, even if they change their mind and stop, are finding themselves, both male and female, unable to have any children, not to also mention the psychological damage it causes. And I wondered whether it was all part of a long game.

I know it sounds far fetched and stupid but if people believe other countries can influence politics for their own gain, why wouldn’t they be open to funding this type of thing also to decrease a generation of children in their rivals countries? I don’t know, it’s probably just me, but from the amount of stuff that has come out I wouldn’t be surprised if it was true. Because I don’t get it otherwise. Where is the money coming from? And why? What’s the point of it? Such a concentrated burst can’t be just for a few people’s self validation, or could it? Or do I need to go to Tesco and buy some foil for myself? Ah well, let the laughs come in, I will still probably believe it to be true (but just not mention it again) Wink

itsabitofamess · 01/03/2020 13:53

Actually, I hope she is successful. Only a teenager and allowed to re gender. Major surgery and she had changed her mind. Massive failure of counselling and making sure this was the correct road before it was turned down. I have no problem with trans people. But they shouldn't be offered a surgery as a quick fix in case it's not the fix they need.

InTheSummerhouse · 01/03/2020 13:54

BaolFan Agree completely about mental health provision.

(Yes I know I said she was suing - I misunderstood both the OP and the BBC link which said "taking legal action against". I have acknowledged I misunderstood.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 01/03/2020 13:56

Mermaids is all over the BBC news, ive had to turn it off

ThumbWitchesAbroad · 01/03/2020 13:57

I'm also interested in your theory, @BritneyPeedOnALadybug.

I have read some stuff that was very interesting in terms of how to dull the masses' senses to things that are Not Right - there was a document around that seemed to suggest that the paedophile movement were pushing the trans agenda to get people to accept men in women's spaces as being ok, which would then segue into accepting that men (generally) finding children sexual wasn't that bad either. I'll see if I can find it again - I know it's been linked in here before somewhere but it was a long while ago. Shocking though.

There was also something else about how to get policies through - basically act as though the policy is already law, persuade large institutions that it Will Definitely Be Law and get them to change ahead of the game - something that the trans rights lobby have managed to an incredible level!

adaline · 01/03/2020 13:59

YABU.

Teenagers should not be allowed to make those kinds of decisions. I hope she sues, and I hope she wins.

fascinated · 01/03/2020 13:59

This is brilliant. This will hopefully make them wake up and stop mutilating people for just being themselves.

GCAcademic · 01/03/2020 14:00

For those criticising this young woman for her "choice". Firstly, dysphoria is not a "choice". And how many of us felt distressed by the onset of puberty and hated our developing bodies? If, back then (yes, I am middle-aged and grew up pre-internet) we could go online and find any number of "supportive" people (a lot of whom are adult males, by the way - that should ring alarm bells) telling you that you must be in the wrong body, and coaching you on how to get treatment to reverse those distressing changes, what to say to the professionals, etc, how do we know that we wouldn't have done the same? I suspect many of us would have.

fascinated · 01/03/2020 14:01

Pharma lobby is driving this, partly. To sell drugs to the „emerging gender reassignment market „. Shame on the NHS for going along with it.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 14:02

The NHS has failed in its Duty of Care to a large number of vulnerable girls (under 18 yrs).
These girls & young women have been given life-affecting off licence drugs & surgeries.
An NHS service has colluded with the idea that they could be 'born in the wrong body' & prescribed body modifying treatments rather than support for whatever trauma or cause of distress has affected them.

So much of this reveals the lack of care for girls & women's experiences & well-being.
Media, politicians & the organisations representing the 'trans community' have contributed to the serious harm done to girls & young women.

I would urge people to listen to the accounts of women who are 'detransitioning'.

Feminist Current account of 'Make More Noise' event last November where many spoke:
(extract)
"It is worth noting the bravery that young women — all between the ages of 19 and 29 — exhibited as they recalled their most intimate surgeries and brutal insecurities. Later, on Twitter, Evans disclosed that, of the seven women on the panel, there were five mastectomies, two hysterectomies, two oophorectomies (the removal of ovaries), and 20 years of testosterone combined.

So, why have so many young women been compelled to undergo such brutal surgeries?

One detransitioner, who goes by the name “Satan Herself” on Twitter, said that transitioning was a way to evade lesbophobia and her “reality as a homosexual woman.” Living as a “transman” for five years, she had never even considered the possibility she harboured internalized homophobia, as she was so supportive of LGBT rights. Yet she knew no lesbians and was starved of representation of masculine women. She said she couldn’t envision growing up into an adult lesbian woman, and immersed herself in transgender theory, which seemed the ideal way to “fix herself.”

Another detransitioner, Ellie, said that, at 15 years old, she too couldn’t picture herself as a homosexual adult female, so began her lengthy four-year transition journey one year later, with a mastectomy.

Thomasin began identifying between “male and various non-binary identities” at 14 years old, only desisting from treatment in May. She said social media and the online world functioned as a kind of escape route, especially since she saw no lesbian positivity or representation online or in real life.

Nele, who identified as trans for two years, argued that people aren’t just “born transgender for a magical reason,” but that it is “put on you by society.” She claimed that the contemporary trans movement masquerades as progressive while “reinforcing gender stereotypes” — a position shared by Bell, who said accepting the concept of gender identity without criticism can legitimize “a form of caricatured gender stereotypes.” Bell feels the outcome of trans ideology is a “movement that actually acts against the support of lesbian and gay people.”

Many also explained that they had pre-existing body issues, some manifesting in life-threatening eating disorders, alongside gender dysphoria.

Despite almost dying from anorexia, “Satan Herself” said she never linked hating her female body to her eating disorder or gender dysphoria. She never connected the dots between her fear of living as a female and her fear of living at a normal weight, both of which caused her to be dismissive of her health.

“I often wonder how nobody realized that? No therapist I saw; no doctor I talked to about getting surgery; no one in my personal life,” she said to a tear-choked room. “I just wish someone would have been there to tell me not to get castrated at 21…" (continues)
www.feministcurrent.com/2020/01/09/detransitioners-are-living-proof-the-practices-surrounding-trans-kids-need-be-questioned/

Dontdisturbmenow · 01/03/2020 14:02

We have no ideas what psychological treatment this person had before. What we know is that access to gender reassignment follows a very clear pathway that allows patients to consider for quite some time whether this is what they want to do. Most complain that the process takes too long, that there are too many steps when they know for sure that is what they want. That includes teenagers/young adults. Gender reassignment used to not be available to those under 18, but it was then consider discriminatory on the basis of age,

So yes, I agree that the NHS just can't get it right. However, we don't know whether there was a failure on the system in this case or whether it is just a case of someone who was given many opportunities to reconsider, but they were adamant that is what they wanted, and then changed their mind and looking for someone else to blame.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 14:02

Mermaids is all over the BBC news, ive had to turn it off

They are firefighting. They’ve lobbied for this. They’ve stood between mentally unwell adolescents and appropriate psychological help.

And they know it. When the suing does begin, I Hope Mermaids are the target, not the NHS.