AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

[HollyGoLoudly1]

A 23 year old is taking legal action against the NHS for giving her treatment to transition to male as a teenager. She has since decided to live as a female and is taking legal action against the NHS as they should have 'challenged her' more when she wanted to transition rather than giving her the treatment.

The NHS can't do right for doing wrong here. Cash strapped to the point of collapse and being sued for giving someone the treatment they asked for. I despair.

AIBU or is this absolutely ludicrous?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
from MNHQ - this title and OP originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title

I'm sure she is not the first person to seek legal changes when suffering significant permanent harm after being misdiagnosed by medical professionals, sadly I am sure she won't be the last either.

This type of legal action would have implications for future generations of trans people. Should this young woman win, I should think, the guidelines for the nhs regarding time scales and treatment options will change to such a case happening again. Sadly, this is not an isolated case. Following the media exposure of this case, other people who have undergone gender transition/re assignment at a young age will come forward with concerns.
The fact is the human brain isn't fully developed until the age of 25. The last part of the brain to mature is the frontal cortex. The part which controls impulsively, decision making, hazard awareness, our concept of mortality etc. Therefore, it is not advisable to make a life altering decision prior to the age of say 26 or 27. It is for this reason i've always believed a person should be fully matured before getting married or having a child.

There have actually been cases where unnecessary amputations have been carried out, I don't think by the NHS

There was a surgeon in Scotland who carried out limb amputations. The NHS prevented further amputations on demand.

One of the prominant Gender psychiatrists of the time was involved/supportive of such operations.

Guardian
(extract)
"Following an internal investigation, Forth Valley NHS trust has now effectively banned Mr Smith from carrying out further procedures on people suffering from the disorder. Private hospitals have also refused to allow Mr Smith to carry out the procedure.

Mr Smith said he had six more patients waiting to be considered for amputation, two of whom had been fully assessed by psychiatrists as suitable candidates." (continues)
www.theguardian.com/society/2000/feb/01/futureofthenhs.health

This may have already been posted - but this video shows how much the testosterone affects girls' voices, so that even if they do detransition, their voices will never go back to how they were.

I saw a tv documentary online some while ago - a lady in a Scandinavian country, possibly Denmark, who had transitioned to male and then detransitioned and years later, her voice still sounded very masculine and her jawline looked masculine. In fact, she looked like a transwoman, which is ironic.

Dontdisturbmenow

Polly Carmichael has just confirmed on the Victoria Derbyshire show that 3 to 6 sessions are usually what is offered.

We have had parents on here who have said after six sessions, you're dropped like a hot potato. They cut you loose. One woman has had to live in penury in order to afford private sessions for her daughter. (Sessions, incidentally, which started to work.)

The court will have a very hard time disputing the specification. Where they might succeed is If the Trust didn't flow the pathways clearly stipulated in the service specification.

I think you are misunderstanding the remit of the judicial review, which is very specific and hinges on informed consent for one particular drug. The Tavistock will struggle to prove informed consent because the information on the drug when used in this particular indication varies from unclear/unproven to contraindicated.

It’s not about consent to treatment overall.

@Dontdisturbmenow I have too much experience of this & I found that very little counselling/therapy is offered. Affirmation is much quicker, especially with older children (16+) as the clinics are so full. It was an 18 month wait for our son, he was put on the adult list when he was 17 and has been to mass sessions, a whole lecture hall of young people attending at once. Sadly he is buying hormones on line and receiving no counselling or support, apparently his in line friends know what they are doing & offer plenty of help. If he had received adequate support at 16 he wouldn’t be taking this route at 20.

Doctors aren't McDonald's, obliged to fill your order

This. And this x 1000 when the patient is a child.

One of the prominant Gender psychiatrists of the time was involved/supportive of such operations.

Russell Reid!
NonnyMouse Thank you for the link to Malcolm Clark's thread.

(extract)
"Cue another disaster. 20 years ago I was called in to help on a Horizon that was the strangest I've ever worked on. I flew out to Germany to interview a man who wanted to have a perfectly healthy leg removed. The man believed his inner innate identity was as an amputee.
10./ His psychiatrist was an erstwhile student of Money, Russell Reid. Like Money he'd long been fascinated by people who were sexually aroused by the idea of being amputees (amnepotophiles) but by the 90s he began to argue this wasn't a fetish. It was their core inner identity.
11./ He compared this to 'gender identity'. Reid was at the time the UK's biggest expert in transsexual care & provided influential expert testimony during the passage of the Gender Recognition Act (2004). Reid argued doctors should always affirm transsexuals' gender identities.
12./ Otherwise he said they would commit suicide. He now took the same approach on 'Amputee Identity', referring the German & another patient to a surgeon to remove their chosen limbs. Reid's argument was if medics did not make their bodies fit their inner identity... " (continues)

Russell Reid was disciplined by GMC for misconduct. He was defended & supported by petitions organised by Press For Change (Stephen Whittle et al)

Wiki
"In 2006-2007, Reid was investigated by the General Medical Council (GMC), the regulatory body for doctors in the UK. A serious professional misconduct hearing opened following complaints brought by four doctors from the main NHS Gender Identity Clinic at Charing Cross hospital, west London, and some of his former patients. It is alleged that he breached international standards of care, set by the Harry Benjamin International Gender Dysphoria Association (HBIGDA) by inappropriately prescribing cross-gender hormones to patients and referring them for sex reassignment surgery without adequate assessment.

Britain's primary lobbying organization for transgender and transsexual people, Press for Change, was quoted as saying that Reid received support during the process from more than 150 patients as well as additional experts in the area. Ultimately, the enquiry found Reid guilty of Serious Professional Misconduct, mostly for failing to communicate fully with patients GPs and not documenting his reasons for departing from the HBIGDA Standards of Care guidelines sufficiently. However, the panel "determined that it would be in the public interest as well as your own interests if you were to return to practice under strict conditions." and allowed him to return to practice, subject to some restrictions on his practice and hormone prescriptions for the next 12 months.

Reid was a member of an expert committee set up by the Royal College of Psychiatrists to draw up new UK care guidelines on the treatment of Gender identity disorder. He stepped down as a member of the group in the wake of the GMC inquiry." (continues)

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russell_Reid

It was an 18 month wait for our son, he was put on the adult list when he was 17 and has been to mass sessions, a whole lecture hall of young people attending at once.

Eastpoint are these mass sessions organised by NHS?

Yes, it was in one of the lecture theatres near Charing Cross where the adult GIDS clinic is. He went on his own, the letter said no room for friends or family. He was 18.5.

I saw a tv documentary online some while ago - a lady in a Scandinavian country, possibly Denmark, who had transitioned to male and then detransitioned

The Swedish documentary 'The Trans Train'?
part 1

part 2 www.svtplay.se/video/24853942/uppdrag-granskning/uppdrag-granskning-sasong-20-the-trans-train-part-2?start=auto

Yes, it was in one of the lecture theatres near Charing Cross where the adult GIDS clinic is. He went on his own, the letter said no room for friends or family. He was 18.5.

This is so disturbing.

What other life changing medical treatment would be discussed this way & without allowing support from a family member or friend?

Safeguarding principles apply not just to children but also Vulnerable Adults.

It breaks me if I spend too much time thinking about the harm he’s doing to a healthy young body. No recognition by school or CAMHS of ASD, anorexia or depression. You can’t make someone participate in therapy.

I might have to leave this thread for a bit as I can’t sit & cry about something I can’t do anything about.

R0 yes! The NHS calls them ‘Information Days’.

I don’t think it’s common practice in every GIC, there seems to be quite a lot of variation (some do the initial registration appointment over the phone, others do it in person with a nurse, for example)

Here’s an account of an Information Day at The London GIC (colloquially known as Charing Cross, but not actually located inside Charing Cross hospital) which is now part of Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust, but used to be part of West London Mental Health Trust (the actual location is changing this year, from W6 to NW3).

www.reddit.com/r/transgenderUK/comments/85masl/notes_from_the_charing_cross_gic_information_day/?utm_source=amp&utm_medium=&utm_content=post_body

Of course

I think its likely to be the voices of other young people who have been through the same process & then detransitioned which will land with other young people still on medical protocols.

No doubt this is why some are so determined to undermine & silence them.

There will be need for experienced & qualified therapists to support those who come to recognise what NHS services (& schools) have done to them.

Eastpoint

Totally understandable that you need to take a break. I think I will force myself to log off later. It’s hard when this is the situation your own family is facing, not just a theoretical one. My DsD is only 13, so luckily, we have more breathing space than many.

Eastpoint are you in contact with the parent group 'OurDuty' or Transgender Trend?

@Eastpoint, This is the reflection of a massive increase pressure on psychological and counseling services overall and staff shortage.

Although the above can't be denied, it impacts on many people, not only those with gender dysmorphia. It leads to teenagers opting for suicidal thoughts.

It is reflective of the pressure the nhs is under but doesn't mean the Trust acted wrongly.

If course you are being U. A child can’t give informed consent for outcomes they cannot imagine let alone when there is only one treatment offered to them and all related conditions and circumstances are ignored

Although the above can't be denied, it impacts on many people, not only those with gender dysmorphia. It leads to teenagers opting for suicidal thoughts.

Children dont 'opt for suicidal thoughts'

The children who are identified as transgender receive constant misleading statistics about suicide ideation & risk. Whilst they wait for their 'gender dysphoria' to be treated by medical & surgical interventions at NHS GIC, schools & primary care services cannot explore or support alternative focii.

@R0wantrees - yes! Thank you, the Trans Train is the one.

This is a real political hot potato.
On the one hand there is almost a social contagion, where previously unheard of numbers of young people, seemingly being encouraged by the authorities - schools, medical consultants - to transition, simply because these youngsters do not satisfy gender norms.
This IMHO should not be happening, it is going to destroy lives.
The groups who are pushing this ideology, Mermaids, Stonewall have far to much power and influence on lawmakers. They constantly guilt trip organisations into buying into transgenderism, they encourage schools to go behind parent's backs, they make up false statistics about suicide rates.
The NHS should not be involved in any of this. The Tavistock should be a fully private clinic, but placed under strict medical guidelines.
This will not be the last case by any means, this is just the beginning as I and many others predicted.

This is a great article from October last year, written by a transwoman who totally disagrees with the trans activists ways of bullying and browbeating everyone else into submission and silence.
And she's not alone - plenty of other transfolk have come out and said they disagree with it, but they aren't given anything like as much airtime as the trans activists.
www.rt.com/op-ed/471025-trans-woman-woke-too-far/