Meet the Other Phone. Protection built in.

Meet the Other Phone.
Protection built in.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

723 replies

HollyGoLoudly1 · 01/03/2020 12:03

A 23 year old is taking legal action against the NHS for giving her treatment to transition to male as a teenager. She has since decided to live as a female and is taking legal action against the NHS as they should have 'challenged her' more when she wanted to transition rather than giving her the treatment.

The NHS can't do right for doing wrong here. Cash strapped to the point of collapse and being sued for giving someone the treatment they asked for. I despair.

AIBU or is this absolutely ludicrous?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
from MNHQ - this title and OP originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 23:08

Keira is seeking recourse on the decisions she made based on the information she was given. She has the right to change her mind and if she wants to place blame elsewhere then it needs to be taken seriously.

This is not the basis for the Judicial Review.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 23:10

why do they need better mental health services? It's not a mental health condition.....

Because there are no diagnostic tests for actually being trans and some people mistakenly think they are trans because of comorbid, undiagnosed mental health issues.

JBEM4 · 01/03/2020 23:14

@R0wantrees I said trans person not child.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 01/03/2020 23:16

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficultwhy do they need better mental health services? It's not a mental health condition.....

You really think that looking in the mirror and being so unhappy about your body that you're willing to undergo lifelong medication and major surgery and all the problems that entails isn't a mental health condition?

Theres no doubt that sometimes surgery is the only thing that will help sometimes, but it absolutely shouldn't be the default for everyone.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 23:16

There are no objective diagnostic tests for children or adults, so better mental health services are required for adults too.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 23:20

Because there are no diagnostic tests for actually being trans and some people mistakenly think they are trans because of comorbid, undiagnosed mental health issues.

statement by former NHS GIDS clinicians :

(extract)

"In the clinical setting we have become familiar with narratives, especially in younger children, resting almost entirely on the most superficial of signifiers: toys, activities, hair, clothes, a certain aesthetic upon which effectively the (self) diagnosis of trans is made, and a social role transition affected. Unfortunately these tropes are compounded and perpetuated by some “diversity” trainings delivered in schools.

We have also witnessed a coincidence of autistic spectrum conditions and gendered/ sexed distress. The lens of gender can seem very apt for these girls retrospectively to understand their difficulties: always feeling weird, not fitting in, struggling to understand social interactions and cues, bullied often, feeling themselves to be outside the norm. Additionally girls struggle physically with puberty; as a change from the familiar, often unpredictable, body sprouting and changing, unwanted thoughts and feelings.

The distress of their body seems to accrue over time for these young females; it was not primary. Socially transitioning might even have an iatrogenic effect on gender dysphoria as the body becomes a shameful secret that needs to be disavowed – we see embodied disconnection and alienation snowball. We are now hearing first hand from detransitioners that, had they not found this relatively novel way of understanding their difficulties (inevitably with the assistance of the internet) through the explanation of ‘trans’, the natural history would suggest they would find themselves living as lesbians. Furthermore, how they looked, lived and loved needed no apology.

In summary, in the clinic we witness this toxic collision of factors: a world telling these children they are ‘wrong’; they are not doing girlhood (or boyhood) correctly. They realise their nascent sexual desire is going to be problematic; they struggle in puberty because it is uncomfortable, weird and unpredictable (particularly heightened if they happen to be on the autistic spectrum).

In all of our good-willed attempts to be empathetic, to share the pain of these very young people, we adults must not lose sight of the risk of joining too closely with them. Their pain is real, their way of making sense of it may be helpful, but it may not. Adults and professionals have a duty to step back from the feelings, whether their own or the young people’s, in order to consider what is fundamentally in young people’s interests. Listening can occur at many levels. We can hear and respond to distress without agreeing with the other person’s explanation of why they are experiencing it.

The significant treatment decisions being made are adult decisions. It is simply not possible for a child or adolescent to conceptualise a loss of fertility or sexual pleasure before they have developed their adult body."
(continues)
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 23:27

Current psychotherapeutic practice involves immediate affirmation of a young person's self-diagnosis, which often leads to support for social and even medical transition. Although this practice will likely help small numbers of children, there may also be many false positives.

From:
www.tandfonline.com/doi/full/10.1080/00332925.2017.1350804

JBEM4 · 01/03/2020 23:27

@DuLANGMondeFOREVER I haven't read the original article and as usual I am sitting here letting the ignorance of all things anti-trans get under my skin so every comment I have made has been on my sons behalf and in his defence.

That being said going through the whole GIDS process at the moment, if it were suggested or recommended that my son start hormone therapy after three sessions I wouldn't allow it.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 23:31

This article is a must read for anyone with a child who identifies as the opposite sex. It’s written by a former employee of GIDs at Tavistock.

quillette.com/author/marcus-evans/

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 23:34

And this one is by a former employee of the Leeds branch of GIDs, which is also part of the London Tavistock:

medium.com/@kirstyentwistle/an-open-letter-to-dr-polly-carmichael-from-a-former-gids-clinician-53c541276b8d

Wanting the most-informed treatment possible for ones gender distressed child isn’t ‘anti trans’. Trans kids deserve to be treated with the same high standards as kids with other physical and/or mental conditions.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 23:36

I said trans person not child.

The thread is about the NHS treatment of children who are identified as trans.
Should adults identified as trans have control over which NHS interventions are best to 'reconcile their body & mind'?

There are Vulnerable Adults who have also spoken out about their 'detransition' & the role that unrecognised grief, abuse & mental health issues played.

OverMy · 01/03/2020 23:37

Is there any information on how pubertal brain development that is controlled by GnRH and sex specific hormones is affected by blocking puberty followed by cross sex hormones and GnRH blockers or anti- androgens?

The difference in treatment for transmen and transwomen could actually explain why there are more female detransistioners - post puberty it’s most often cross sex hormones only for transmen, rarely GnRH blockers. Post puberty transwomen are given cross sex hormones with optional GnRH blocker or anti-androgen treatment if testosterone is causing undesired voice changes, body/face hair growth, male pattern hair loss, erectile function. If gonads have been removed it is unlikely to be required. So for young female transitioners depending on how much impact testosterone has on ovarian function pubertal brain development could still happen once the blockers stop. For young male transistioners it’s unlikely there is a high enough level of testosterone for pubertal brain development.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 23:37

Wanting the most-informed treatment possible for ones gender distressed child isn’t ‘anti trans’. Trans kids deserve to be treated with the same high standards as kids with other physical and/or mental conditions.

This ^^

wellbehavedwomen · 01/03/2020 23:48

@JBEM4 obviously this is absolutely nobody else's business, and is personal to your family... but if your child has autistic traits in any way, then I would consider talking with adult autistic women with children - many of whom are here on Mumsnet, in fact - about their adolescent feelings and experiences. I've found it hugely educative, myself.

It would seem that feeling in the wrong body is normal, pretty much, in female autistic adolescence. As is outgrowing that, and living an adult life as a happy woman. All those I know are very, very glad they weren't growing up now. They are quietly sure that they would have embarked down this path to their very great detriment.

Again, I recognise that your own child's situation is personal to them, and they may absolutely be truly solely gender dysphoric, and that all that needs addressing. I just wanted to mention this as someone who has her own reasons for researching this, and has come to very markedly different conclusions. Clearly neither of us can know who is right, and I wish you and your (plainly deeply loved, and entirely supported) child well, whatever the future may hold.

ChazsBrilliantAttitude · 02/03/2020 00:00

Currently there is no physical diagnostic test for being transgender consequently being diagnosed as trans is based on belief and self perception. Given the huge changes that take place in the brain during the teenage years, how can anyone be sure what is driving this sense of otherness. If you add in other factors such as ASD, sexuality and gender roles how can you properly assess what the final outcome of a teenager’s developmental journey will be. Puberty blockers are not a neutral, consequence free choice. It just feels logical to allow them to explore and develop their adult identity before making irreversible changes. If they still believe that transitioning is the right path and fully understand the risks at that point then it is a very different scenario to an adolescent making life changing decisions.

DeeCeeCherry · 02/03/2020 00:05

She was just 15. A young girl, not a woman. How is her being 23 now relevant? I hope she wins her case and that this encourages other girls and boys who were given life-altering drugs at a young age, to follow her lead.

JamieVardysHavingAParty · 02/03/2020 00:20

obviously this is absolutely nobody else's business, and is personal to your family... but if your child has autistic traits in any way, then I would consider talking with adult autistic women with children - many of whom are here on Mumsnet, in fact - about their adolescent feelings and experiences. I've found it hugely educative, myself.

It would seem that feeling in the wrong body is normal, pretty much, in female autistic adolescence. As is outgrowing that, and living an adult life as a happy woman. All those I know are very, very glad they weren't growing up now. They are quietly sure that they would have embarked down this path to their very great detriment.

It sometimes seems to me online that all the slightly younger aspie females, whom otherwise I get on with brilliantly due to shared interests and sense of humours, identify as trans. Of course they do.

As a girl growing up, I used to wish I was a boy, because I thought socialising was simpler for boys. I'm not sure it actually necessarily is, but it looks simpler from an outside point of view. It would have been easy to convince me that the reason I had male-dominated interests and found it easier to make male friends was because I was a boy inside. I was loosely Christian, so I could have decided I had a male soul or something.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 02/03/2020 00:22

This young German woman had a double mastectomy and a full hysterectomy by the age of 21. She’s now 23 and asking how come adults didn’t step in and stop her from being castrated? (her phrasing).

Before she started identifying as male, she had a life threatening eating disorder, so the doctors knew she had a mental illness, but they castrated her anyway. At 21.

Now she realises she is a butch lesbian, and she knows better than anyone that people cannot change sex

This is happening all over the western world.

AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]
WhatWouldBarbaraCastleDo · 02/03/2020 05:19

I absolutely support this judicial review. We should be asking why so many young people (predominantly girls) believe they are in the wrong body. It seems to me to be a very individual response to a social problem (pressures on young people, especially teenage girls, for a range of reasons - exam pressures, general fear of the future etc etc; impact of the use of social media; a desire to escape gendered expectations). As has already been mentioned, many of these young people have underlying mental health issues/history of trauma and/or autistic traits.

By encouraging people to believe they were born in the wrong body we are selling them a lie. There will be people left infertile, people with a lifetime of medical treatment; people unable to orgasm; people facing having to find a partner from a very small dating pool, people facing unknown long-term consequences of pausing puberty/taking cross-sex hormones.

Binterested · 02/03/2020 07:24

There’s lots of stuff about not being able to tell who is ‘really trans’. No one is actually really a brain born in the wrong body. No one. Some religious people might believe in that and I think that’s how they square the circle in theocratic states like Iran but we don’t base any other massive medical intervention on religious beliefs in this country.

What might happen is that some trans identifying people (and MN don’t delete me - I’m using this for clarity in the context of this post and I’m being civil) genuinely do feel better after surgery. Like my aunt with her blanket on her amputated leg because it feels really cold.

What that doesn’t mean is that the trans identified person always was ‘really trans’ or always was really the opposite sex any more than my aunt’s missing leg is really cold.

I think those situations are very rare and surgery should be taking place in a handful of cases only. And over 25s only by law. The fact that there are private surgeons making a living out of this tells you this is not what’s happening and the ‘really trans’ statement makes it harder to be clear about that.

SophocIestheFox · 02/03/2020 07:27

Brilliant posts on this thread, it’s just full of wonderful, comprehensive information.

Wishing Keira all the best with this, she deserved better then, and she she deserves better now. Thank you, Keira, for your bravery in speaking up.

Binterested · 02/03/2020 07:47

In fact I think there is a good argument for going back using the terminology ‘trans identified’ on MN. It makes it clear that this is not a physiological condition. And also that identification can change.

SonEtLumiere · 02/03/2020 08:06

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

BovaryX · 02/03/2020 08:29

She has the right to change her mind and if she wants to place blame elsewhere then it needs to be taken seriously

The right to change her mind? Keira Bell was given life altering hormones from the age of 16. No other form of therapy was suggested. Shehad her breasts amputated at 20 Keira Bell is living with the decisions made by the doctors she trusted. Given that the number of young girls presenting at Tavistock has skyrocketed from 40 in 2009 to 1806 in 2018, how many more Keira Bells in the next decade? This draconian, irreversible medical intervention is experimental and unprecedented. The reason why this is suddenly happening needs to be exposed to rigorous public and judicial scrutiny. Keira Bell is very brave to spearhead this judicial review and to speak openly about her traumatic experience.