Page 22 | AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

BaolFan · 01/03/2020 19:42

I am very suspicious of people who want to shut these discussions down.

So am I. Although I take heart from the fact that most of those arguing against it, are doing so because they don't understand all of the facts of the case. Take the OP for example - she thought that Keira was suing the NHS and didn't know about the ins and outs of the GIDS process. Most people once they are informed, are supportive of the JR and rightly horrified that children are being used as guinea pigs.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 01/03/2020 19:45

I assume your arthritis is debilitating enough physically and mentally for the small risk of your medication to make taking it the lesser of two evils.

Is it debilitating? Yes
Are the risks of the medication small? No
Do I think the risks outweigh the benefits? I did when I started, now that I have developed some complications, no I don't.

I presume your arthritis is sufficiently severe and debilitating to mean that the side effects and potential consequences of your treatment are preferable to remaining un-medicated?

Initially I thought so. Especially when the main side effects were fairly minor. Now I've developed major side effects, no I'm not so sure. If I contracted a life threatening infection I definitely wouldn't think it was worth the risk.

This, plus you're clearly aware of the risks involved. Informed consent can't happen without the relevant information being shared.

But only the most likely are really explained. They don't go into detail about every potential risk.

I had a medical procedure several years ago. Risks were explained with a very cursory " potential risk of X happening is 1 in ten thousand but it's never happened in this hospital so don't worry". It happened. It's permanent and irreversible. Was that informed consent?

JBEM4 · 01/03/2020 19:48

As the parent of a trans child (older teen) I find some of these responses absolutely insulting.

It is NOT a choice, a whim, a mental health issue and my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

So easy for most to have an opinion based on pure ignorance......

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 01/03/2020 19:49

Do you understand the risks associated with the medications you are taking?

Some of them, not all

Have you balanced the risks against the benefits to you of taking them?

No, because how do I know what my chance of developing the side effects are, or how bad it will be? How do I know how bad the arthritis will get if untreated?

Were you able to consider a variety of treatment options with the potential risks and benefits explained to you?

No other options available thanks to NICE. Their protocol is that you have to try these medications first before you are eligible for an alternative.

thetoddleratemyhomework · 01/03/2020 19:51

If I went to the doctor and said, as a clearly unhappy child of perfectly average weight and height, "I think I am fat, I would like to have bariatric surgery" or "I hate my ears, I need to have them surgically altered" or anything else that suggested an element of body dysmorphia, you would expect the doctor's first approach to be to try to understand what mental health issues might be behind why I am feeling this way, NOT to progress to treatment without advising of the long term consequences AND to advise watchful waiting whilst I am still a child and clearly struggling with mental health issues.

That's the point - the examples I have given are not exactly the same as gender dysphoria - some people will feel better being transitioned, but potentially irreversible hormone treatment and/or surgery should never be presented as a magic wand for feelings of unhappiness and a child's capacity to consent to things that could be considered harm to them but which they may not understand or be able to appreciate the value of yet (biological urge to have children but unable to have them, value in being able to orgasm, old age with low bone density) should be treated with some level of scepticism.

some of these children think they are changing sex - they aren't, what they are getting is a surgical facsimile of living as the opposite sex that may cause them pain (including emotional, for example, if they don't pass very well or find it easy to find a partner, not being able to have biological children) and discomfort (watch what a female to male surgical transition looks like - complications are truly awful and multiple operations are common). Being able to get comfortable with natal sex has to be the better option for each of these children and any other treatment should be acknowledged to be the second choice option that it surely is.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 19:52

I find it quite distressing that posters are arguing against the need for this JR.

I feel the same. A judge has already granted the review, so the judiciary believes there is a need for it.

A claimant can’t get a JR just because they want one. They apply, and it can be granted or refused.

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 19:53

I find it quite distressing that posters are arguing against the need for this JR. The treatment under review is slightly irrelevant because any treatment protocol should be open to scrutiny. I am very suspicious of people who want to shut these discussions down

Me too. Really dubious of the motivation for it.

koshkatt · 01/03/2020 19:54

It is NOT a choice, a whim, a mental health issue and my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

How can you say all of this and then claim that this is not a mental health issue?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 19:56

and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

The judge will be looking at all the evidence and concluding what the facts actually are. It’s not possible to make an informed decision if the information is incomplete.

I also have a child who identifies as the opposite sex. There are thousands of us in the U.K. right now.

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 19:56

We (society) have treated things before a certain way, found out that it wasn't the best way or that the negatives outweighed the positives or whatever, and stopped those treatments. That's how it should be. Not sticking fingers in ears when serious concerns are raised and carrying on regardless.

DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult · 01/03/2020 19:56

Thanks everyone.

My child started identifying as transgender in 2011 before it was what it has become now.

Back then it was really really difficult. The focus was on the mental health aspect. It was a struggle to get anything recognised, but we fought for my child to have a private space to change in school etc while this was ongoing.

This was fine and things were ok.

Then we moved area.

We had to register for help, we had to explain things to the school again.

The school leapt on my child as a tick box exercise for being inclusive. Didnt want my child to access their own, private space, they wanted them in with children of the sex my child wishes to be. Total affirmation, absolutely unquestioning.

The help wasnt there either. We were referred over, and because my child had the quota of counselling from the NHS. Now we were put in a situation where my child, who clearly has mental health issues, was offered these life changing drugs almost straight away. My child looked to me for answers as to why they couldnt have this, allegedly, totally irreversible medication.

I declined and was told there was nothing more they could do for us.

There was nothing more I could do without pushing forward down the medical route.

My child is in pain, daily. There is no help, nowhere to turn. We are just stuck in this limbo right now.

All this self ID, affirmation, trans lobbyists and the like have done nothing but take a path that should be difficult and make it look like it's easy, taken away any meaningful help, and turned everyone into nodding dogs, too scared to question anything.

Everything should be questioned, it should be hard, then, after going through everything negative, and given a realistic view of what their life will be, I'd they wish to continue, when age appropriate, they can.

It took more appointments for me to get antibiotics for a chest infection than it did for my child to be offered puberty blockers.

I genuinely feel like I'm failing at every turn here. If I accept the drugs, we get the help, if not, we are stuck.

thetoddleratemyhomework · 01/03/2020 19:58

@JBEM4

It sounds as if your child is being properly advised and treated but the woman who is bringing the claim was transitioned woefully quickly.

It is obviously a difficult issue. It is clear that gender dysphoria is a mental health condition in some children in the sense that a majority of children historically have ultimately become comfortable not transitioning after counselling - obviously, an older teen or adult may be more firm in their own mind- and some practitioners do not adequately ensure that children (or even young teens) understand what they may be giving up.

Binterested · 01/03/2020 19:58

my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts

Sorry but you won’t have all the facts. Because there have been no proper reviews carried out on the long term impact of puberty blockers on children. And insufficient research on who detransitions and why. So you will not have all the facts. The facts have not yet been established. Academics who propose research into this topic are denied funding so afaik there are no research projects in the offing. This is a live medical experiment on children.

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 19:58

It is NOT a choice, a whim, a mental health issue

Er, have you read Keira Bell's account of her experience? Puberty blockers at 16. Cross sex hormones. Breast amputation at 20. Why have the numbers of girls presenting at Tavistock skyrocketed from 40 in 2009 to 1806 in 2018? What is causing that increase? Keira Bell describes a couple of appointments, an immediate confirmation of her 16 year old diagnosis and years of life altering medication. It is about time this was exposed to rigorous public scrutiny And judicial review.

koshkatt · 01/03/2020 19:59

My heart goes out to you and your child Difficult
The TRAs have done so much harm. It is criminal.

MNHQ

HebeMumsnet · 01/03/2020 19:59

Note from MNHQ - the title and OP on this thread originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 20:02

The school leapt on my child as a tick box exercise for being inclusive. Didnt want my child to access their own, private space, they wanted them in with children of the sex my child wishes to be. Total affirmation, absolutely unquestioning.

This is our experience right now.
School have been told to back the fuck off and we’re surprised but have agreed. Her peers are 100% affirming, of course they are. There are loads of them currently claiming a trans identity. At least 3 in the class of 30.

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 20:02

It doesn't sound like you're failing at all Difficult.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 20:03

The treatment under review is slightly irrelevant because any treatment protocol should be open to scrutiny. I am very suspicious of people who want to shut these discussions down.

Absolutely
Anyone working with children & Vulnerable Adults should be open & welcoming of scrutiny, its how practice is ensured to be the very best it can be.

Reflective practice will be safer.

Anyone who is trying to shut down discussions about Safeguarding represents risk, either direct or indirect.

titchy · 01/03/2020 20:04

my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

Good - that's great to hear. This young person, and many more have NOT had that standard of care. They are arguing that they should. Surely you want that?

BlueHarry · 01/03/2020 20:04

I really hope your child gets the support and care that they need. It's horrible to read how you've been let down.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 20:05

Thanks @HebeMumsnet ❤️

The vote doesn’t reflect the discussion, as it’s based on the misinformation in the first post.

Would the OP consider turning it off? Is that even possible for a mod?

wellbehavedwomen · 01/03/2020 20:06

@JBEM4

It is NOT a choice, a whim, a mental health issue and my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

That's absolutely excellent, and as it should be. But sadly it is also not what is happening across the board, and given you note that it is what is happening with your child, I'm going to guess that you agree it should be? There are a lot of mothers here with ROGD children, and sadly your experience is very, very far from their own. It's also very far from that reported by Keira Bell.

All children dealing with this deserve excellent care, to ensure that their needs are met, and that no assumptions are made that could harm them. Non-dysphoric kids with complex life experiences and co-morbid diagnoses deserve careful and skilful support, no less than the genuinely consistent, insistent and persistent child or young person who really does need medical interventions.

That's all that is being sought.

rogdmum · 01/03/2020 20:07

Difficult I’m so sorry to read that. It is such a minefield with affirmation pushed all over the place as the only acceptable path and precious little help (unless you can afford private therapy) for those of us who feel a medicalised route is wrong for our children.

ChickLitLover · 01/03/2020 20:07

It is NOT a choice, a whim, a mental health issue and my child is attending months of sessions with clinical psychologists before any decisions are made on any form of hormone/physical treatments and we will be able to make an informed decision with all the facts.

There should be no choice to be made. You can’t argue with biology. It must be so incredibly difficult to dislike your body so much ( and I’m aware that’s an understatement for many) that you wish it looked like the opposite sex but changing that through surgery really should never be an option. You can’t deny what you are born as, what your DNA says you are. I really do believe it’s a mental health issue and that people who have these thoughts and feelings deserve help and support to help them accept the body they were born with.