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AIBU?

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AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

723 replies

HollyGoLoudly1 · 01/03/2020 12:03

A 23 year old is taking legal action against the NHS for giving her treatment to transition to male as a teenager. She has since decided to live as a female and is taking legal action against the NHS as they should have 'challenged her' more when she wanted to transition rather than giving her the treatment.

The NHS can't do right for doing wrong here. Cash strapped to the point of collapse and being sued for giving someone the treatment they asked for. I despair.

AIBU or is this absolutely ludicrous?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
from MNHQ - this title and OP originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title

OP posts:
Thread gallery
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Lifeisabeach09 · 01/03/2020 16:39

*mental health of the child

Arthritica · 01/03/2020 16:39

Yapp - young girls going on the pill because of period symptoms is NOTHING like giving teens prostate cancer drugs used to chemically castrate people.

And it is women and girls affected - the massive rise in young girls seeking transition is scary, the "treatment" they are offered is unproven and can have catastrophic side effects, and Keira is making a stand to protect young women in the future. Keira isn't a trans person. Keira's a young woman who detransitioned and has to livce her life with the irreversible effects of that process.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:40

Do you want them to be just left to struggle with no help?

There are a lot of degrees between ‘no help’ and ‘unlicensed cancer drugs that prevent fertility and sexual function from ever developing’

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 16:40

Yep. You are being completely unreasonable. Keira Bell was sixteen years old when she was put on a medical pathway involving puberty blockers, cross sex hormones and breast amputation at age 20. In 2009, only 40 girls presented for 'gender reassignment ' at Tavistock. In 2018, that number had skyrocketed to 1806. Why? Why is the NHS giving children puberty blockers? Why is a lobby group being promoted by an American mega Corp like Starbucks? Keira Bell is a brave young woman. This unprecedented, draconian medical treatment should be challenged in court. What is the NHS thinking?

wellbehavedwomen · 01/03/2020 16:40

She is NOT suing them.

In this country, if the government, or any, 'emanation of the state' (so a body controlled by the state, or mostly funded by them) is doing something that breaks the law, exceeds their powers under the law, or is inherently so wrong it should be restrained, there is only one way to stop them, if they won't negotiate or stop. You go to the High Court, and apply for a Judicial Review.

A Judicial Review is what it says: a judge will review what is happening and decide if it's lawful, or not. If not, then an order can be made to stop whatever it is happening, or change what is happening.

Parents of disabled children being denied what the law says they should have, people abused by police acting unlawfully, people acting against local authorities breaking the law - they all go to judicial review.

Keira Bell isn't suing anyone or asking for any money at all. She is asking that a judge looks at what is happening to children - people under the age of 18 - and young people, who are being allowed to make lifelong choices with, arguably, lack of full understanding of what it is they are signing up to.

35 clinicians have left GIDS at the Tavistock, the country's clinic treating transgender children, many saying they can't be party to what is happening. 75% of the patients they now treat are girls, at least half of whom have strong indications of autism, a third being diagnosed (girls are massively underdiagnosed, as they present very differently to boys and staff in schools often miss it). There are so many reasons an autistic girl might jump on gender as being the answer to all that adolescence makes especially, and exponentially harder for them. But most will grow into happy adult women, often lesbians, if allowed to do so (autistic people are statistically much more likely to be gay). There is also a heavy overlap with traumatic past events, eating disorders, and other mental health problems which, it is claimed, are not being properly explored in favour of immediate affirmation. The clinicians at GIDS apparently have a dark joke that, given their work, there won't be any gay people left in the next generation. That is a joke that should alarm anyone.

Puberty blockers are drugs for men with prostate cancer. They have not been tested on children and are prescribed off label. What we do know is that they cause menopause type symptoms in otherwise healthy adolescents, and that as those adolescents continue to grow, and hormones are vital to our growth and development, there must be major question marks over what they do - not an insistence that they just, "put puberty on pause". They also lead to a 100% take-up of cross sex hormones, which make those adolescents infertile and (in the case of boys previously treated with puberty blockers) may mean they never develop a libido or the capacity for sexual pleasure. The hormones have serious health risks, as our bodies require them to develop and we are anticipating the correct range for our biological sex. You are taking healthy people and creating a medical condition that has lifelong effects, none of which are as yet fully understood. And cross sex hormones in adolescents also create irreversible physical changes - as Keira Bell points out - which make it incredibly hard if those young people later want to change their minds. So 100% of those given puberty blockers go on to transition, while without blockers, 89%-90% will desist and grow up happy in their birth sex, but often gay. Internalised homophobia can make a lot of kids assume they must be the opposite sex, and straight (in fact in Pakistan and Iran, where being gay is a capital crime and the death penalty follows, transition is funded by the state and protection against discrimination strict - transing the gay away is not unheard of in extremely homophobic countries). There is no way the 100% transition rate can be down to the right kids being offered the blockers, either. Mental health care is subjective in clinical terms, and there is no test for gender dysphoria. It seems that adolescence is a natural cure in almost all cases, and denying adolescence denies the cure. Allowing kids to relax into their birth sex, and to develop an idea about who they are as people that can combine how feminine or masculine they are comfortable being, and what sexuality is their own, with a birth sex is surely optimal? I know several adult women who said they longed to be boys as kids, but are happy as adult women. All are mothers. Some are gay. All are so grateful they didn't have to contend with this in their youth.

As for surgery... trans surgery involves removing testicles and a penis and creating a cavity that cannot be allowed to heal, for men, and for women it involves a radical mastectomy, closure of the vagina and creating a 'penis' from the flesh of the arm. It also involves radical surgery on the urethra for both men and women - which obviously has dramatic risks in terms of continence. The majority of those having that surgery will struggle with wetting themselves, bluntly. TENA lady should not be a requirement for healthy young people. And then there's post-mastectomy pain syndrome - very common, and very debilitating. There are an awful lot of nerve endings in breasts. That pain syndrome is well worth it if the alternative is death from cancer, but that's not the case with transition surgery, is it?

80% of trans people now have no surgery at all. While this makes many women really uncomfortable when told that a fully intact adult male can now access communal changing areas just by telling the reception staff, "I'm a woman" there is a major relief to that in human rights terms. The idea that dramatic and extreme cosmetic surgery - because plastic surgery is what this is, however huge the surgical interventions performed - can alter sex is selling people a chimera. It isn't possible. And traumatised and disturbed adolescents should not be told this bullshit.

When it's pointed out that the kids at the Tavistock are really disturbed, the answer is often given, "that's because of transphobia!" The dishonesty and manipulation of that answer is disgusting: many of these kids are survivors of extremely traumatic events, and half are autistic. None of that has anything whatsoever to do with gender identity. And the other horribly dishonest claim made: that half of trans identifying kids try to kill themselves. GIDS at Tavistock say the children and young people they see are no more likely to do that than any other group seen by CAMHS, that suicide is incredibly rare, and that this lying claim actually harms the resilience and peace of mind of those it purports to help. A recognised risk factor in adolescent suicide is telling those adolescents they are at heightened risk of suicide. That statistic came from an online survey, self-selected and advertised to anyone wanting to do it and offering a prize draw reward for doing so, and with no guards against anyone completing it more than once. From that survey, 28 respondents said that they identified as trans and under the age of 25, and of those, 13 said that they had considered suicide. That tiny, self-selected, unknown group's statements on an online quiz is the sole source of that claim. For survey data to be valid, you need it to be probability weighted, from a very large number of people, and for those people to be screened to ensure they represent the public. They can't be self selected and remain valid as a data set, because by definition only people interested in something will apply to do it. This incredibly weak data is constantly reported as the reason kids should be blindly affirmed - even though there is no evidence whatsoever that children and young people who are gender dysphoric are any more at risk. It's appalling that parents are literally told, "better a live son than a dead daughter..." when trying to establish how best to help their child.

Keira Bell is very brave. We've seen the rage aimed at any women speaking out on this - you can imagine the death, rape and violent threats she will be contending with for doing this, and she isn't suing anyone for anything so there is no money to be made. She just wants to protect other children and young people from what happened to her.

She is not suing anyone for anything. She's trying to get the courts to examine whether a child or young person is capable of making such huge and life altering decisions at an age they aren't allowed to buy alcohol, vote, or drive.

Keira Bell is trying to protect your children, and mine. I think we owe her a debt of gratitude. And that's all she wants to do - there is no money here for her.

fascinated · 01/03/2020 16:41

“What do people want the outcome from this JR to be?”

= for our Society to stop imposing sex stereotypes so tightly that gender non-conforming kids think they need to change their bodies to fit those stereotypes.....

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 16:42

www.bbc.com/news/health-51676020

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:42

R0wantrees- Appendix 3 talks specifically about how they work alongside camhs

Livelovebehappy · 01/03/2020 16:42

Surely there’s a disclaimer when consent signed? It’s a disgrace - if NHS had refused, they would have been sued for being discriminatory, and hey ho sued when they’ve gone ahead. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:43

However, I think you might be surprised by the research evidence for other medication used.

FarFrom I actually have some experience of the ethical requirements to approve novel cancer treatments & trials.

Perhaps youve missed the credentials of the authors of the BMJ paper (linked previously) which concluded:

"The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children."

Carl Heneghan
Editor in Chief BMJ EBM, Professor of EBM, University of Oxford

Tom Jefferson
Senior Associate Tutor University of Oxford
Visiting Professor Institute of Health & Society, Faculty of Medicine, Newcastle University

(EMB Evidenced Based Medicine)

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:45

Surely there’s a disclaimer when consent signed? It’s a disgrace - if NHS had refused, they would have been sued for being discriminatory, and hey ho sued when they’ve gone ahead. Damned if they do and damned if they don’t.

Can minors legally consent to irreversible treatment? Because that’s the point of this court case, which is a judicial review.

SHE ISN’T SUING ANYONE, THERE IS NO COMPO CLAIM.

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 16:46

for our Society to stop imposing sex stereotypes so tightly that gender non-conforming kids think they need to change their bodies to fit those stereotypes

Well said. And to hold the adult, medical professionals who are putting depressed 16 year old girls on a path to drastic surgery accountable. There will come a point in the future where this medical experimentation on vulnerable children will be looked back at with astonishment. What is going on?

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 01/03/2020 16:47

There are a lot of degrees between ‘no help’ and ‘unlicensed cancer drugs that prevent fertility and sexual function from ever developing’

Such as?

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:47

R0wantrees- I am not minimising concerns of whistleblowers. David Bell and Marcus Evans are both serious and talented clinicians.

As is Polly Carmichael. And she has publicly shown support to this young woman for giving her experience.

Nobody involved wants to harm these young people.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:49

Can minors legally consent to irreversible treatment? Because that’s the point of this court case, which is a judicial review.

Its noticeable that transactivists are seeking to frame this JR as whether minors can consent to irreversible treatment as a general principle. They are wanting to draw a parallel with right to abortion & possibly contraception.

TammySwansonTwo · 01/03/2020 16:49

Can we also stop calling them “prostate cancer drugs”, that’s no more accurate than calling them puberty blockers or calling Depo Provera a cancer treatment.

These drugs have a range of uses - some hormone-receptive cancers, endometriosis, precocious puberty, amongst others. It’s important to understand what they are.

For example, they are not licensed as puberty blockers. For use in endometriosis, they are licensed for only six months use but they are being given to children off label with no research to support their use or the longterm impacts.

And they are not being used as out of medical necessity. They are being used to make it more likely a child would “pass” as the opposite sex as adults. This idea that they are a harmless pause is absolute nonsense.

TheWordWomanIsTaken · 01/03/2020 16:49

wellbehavedwoman
Exactly all that
I wish there was a like button Smile

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 01/03/2020 16:50

Can minors legally consent to irreversible treatment? Because that’s the point of this court case, which is a judicial review.

Well, yes they can. 16 year olds consent to all medical or surgical treatment that they are undergoing, some of which will be irreversible. Under 16s are also able to give consent. So, would you see that stopped too? Should medical consent be raised to 18 for everything?

BiologyIsReal · 01/03/2020 16:51

Excellent summing up Wellbehaved.

A first start would be to classify gender dysphoria as a psychological condition as anorexia is, and for the adults in the room to acknowledge that no one can ever change sex.

If this is not stopped, when we realise what madness it is, it will go down as the 21st century version of lobotomy.

We need a lot of research, not only into the potential and lonbg-term devastating effects of puberty blockers in this scenario, but also correlations with autism, with childhood pyschological problems, with the effect of the internet trans cults on impressionable children and so on.

For God's sake when will somone call a halt to this insanity?

FrogsFrogs · 01/03/2020 16:52

It's really interesting that the tras have started stating this will mean no abortion or contraception for under age children (let's be honest it's girls, the ones affected totally or most are girls).

I saw a Twitter thing with someone saying this is actually being driven by right wing anti abortion types. The tra ability to detect misdirect reverse knows no bounds.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:53

Nobody involved wants to harm these young people.

Failures of Safeguarding & consequent harm are often influenced by the actions of well-intentioned people working defensively.
There has been a systemic failure to Safeguard children.

mement0mori · 01/03/2020 16:53

I suspect in another 5 years there will be hundreds of women like Keira all trying to sue the NHS because they are infertile or other unwanted side-effects of transition. They will say that as a child they didn’t fully understand the implications of treatment (especially around infertility and sexual dysfunction) Whether or not you agree with the medical transition of children this JR should be welcome by all as hopefully it will look at things from a objective perspective and work out whether or not children can genuinely consent to such treatments. I can’t really understand why anyone would object to this being looked at properly. This area needs loads more research and data analysis carried out and the sooner it is all out into the open the better.

FrogsFrogs · 01/03/2020 16:53

The age of consent thing is very interesting as well.

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:53

Sorry, point taken, Tammy I’ve been using ‘prostate cancer drugs’ as an alternative to the harmless sounding ‘puberty blockers’ - but you are right, they are also used for some types of breast cancer and endometriosis.

They most definitely are not a harmless pause though, as you so clearly attest!

BovaryX · 01/03/2020 16:54

Why has the number of young girls presenting for gender reassignment at Tavistock skyrocketed from 40 in 2009 to 1806 in 2018? This issue particularly affects female children. The drugs Keira Bell was put on might have made her infertile. Imagine. In the 21st century UK, girls who don't conform to regressive gender stereotypes are put on hormones which may make them infertile and doctors are amputating their breasts at 20. WTF is going on?

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