Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

See all MNHQ comments on this thread

AIBU about transgender person taking legal action against NHS for allowing her to transition? [[title edited by MNHQ on OP's behalf]]

723 replies

HollyGoLoudly1 · 01/03/2020 12:03

A 23 year old is taking legal action against the NHS for giving her treatment to transition to male as a teenager. She has since decided to live as a female and is taking legal action against the NHS as they should have 'challenged her' more when she wanted to transition rather than giving her the treatment.

The NHS can't do right for doing wrong here. Cash strapped to the point of collapse and being sued for giving someone the treatment they asked for. I despair.

AIBU or is this absolutely ludicrous?

www.bbc.co.uk/news/health-51676020
from MNHQ - this title and OP originally said the person concerned was suing the NHS. They are in fact just taking legal action. The OP has asked us to make this clear but you may find some of the early posts reflect the words in the original title

OP posts:
Thread gallery
10
Alsohuman · 01/03/2020 16:19

But it won't give any magic answers- because there aren't any

I think stopping giving life changing drugs to minors might be a magic answer.

TammySwansonTwo · 01/03/2020 16:19

She was given 'puberty blockers' at the age of 16 to delay some signs of puberty until she decided what she wanted to do. Those drugs wear off, they are not a permanent thing that will change your sex. They are given to delay certain aspects of male/female puberty only.

Oh they wear off do they? That’s fantastic. I’ve been waiting 11 years for the side effects of this type of drug to wear off. When exactly will this happen? Since you’re an expert I assume you can tell me, since doctors don’t seem to know or care.

While you’re at it, perhaps you could provide similar advice to the thousands of women with longterm health issues following a course of Lupron, Zoladex et al.

I’ve lived for 11 years now with severe fatigue, chronic pain, complete absence of sex drive, hormonal imbalance, hair loss, weight gain etc. Completely lost my career and my marriage is a shell.

But I’m so glad to hear that this will end! Brilliant news.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:20

Clinicians have to make difficult decisions all the time. Medication for ADHD, or any drug treatment given to children can have long term implications. Drugs are not given out for fun. People are trying to do their best in unknown territory. Nobody knows for sure what is best for these young people.

There's a recent statement here actually from former NHS GIDS clinicians published on Womans Place UK website. The source of pressure preventing them from working effectively with young women being those who shout 'transphobia' to anyone questioning the affirmation only approach.

'The natal female question'
(extract)
"We write this as experienced clinicians who have worked in the sole NHS clinic for children and adolescents presenting with distress around their gender identity and their sexed bodies. We have chosen to publish here, rather than a peer reviewed journal, to ensure greater reach than those journals achieve. Also, we publish here in solidarity with WPUK who are currently in the receipt of defamatory accusations of transphobia – accusations also levelled at us.

The exponential rise in adolescent natal females (teenage girls) presenting at gender identity services over the last few years has been well documented. This phenomenon was noted first amongst professionals working in the field and latterly has been picked up by the press and the public. Back in November 2019, for example, Newsnight and radio 4 covered this issue. During the programme “Going back: The people reversing their gender transition” (File on Four, Radio 4, Tuesday 26/11/19) Dr. Elizabeth Van Horn (Consultant Psychiatrist in The Gender Identity Clinic, The Tavistock and Portman NHS Foundation Trust), in response to the question about this explosion in referrals of natal females presenting at the Gender Identity Development Service calmly remarked we ‘do not know’ what might be driving this rise.

This gave a surprising impression of a lack of curiosity, insight and experience on the part of current clinicians. We suggest, in contrast, that many others working in this field have been asking themselves this very question for several years. They have generated hypotheses to account for this noteworthy and concerning phenomenon and refute the claim that it arises solely out of reduced stigma and increased access to services.

We posit that there are multiple, interweaving factors bearing down on girls and young women that have collided at this particular time causing a distress seemingly related to gender and their sex. These factors comprise both the external world (i.e. the social, political and cultural sphere) and the internal (i.e. the emotional, psychological and subjective). The external and internal interact and feed each other [1].

It is notable that even speaking about these observable, and clinically relevant, factors are seen by some as evidence of a form of anti-trans rhetoric. This deeply disturbs the clinicians whose professional lives are dedicated to understanding the source and meaning of human distress. It is from this place that we speak." (continues)
womansplaceuk.org/2020/02/17/the-natal-female-question/

YappityYapYap · 01/03/2020 16:20

I'm alluding to the fact that it seems to be ok for girls as young as 12/13 to be given hormone suppressants and things that mess with their natural cycle and that's ok but if something affects a trans person oh god, there has to be a massive enquiry. The double standards annoy me a bit. One year on the depo injection at age 16 made me infertile for 11 years!

That wasn't even a choice either as I can't get the pill due to migraines. None of us have chosen to be girls/women and contraception is pretty much something we HAVE to get. Deciding to become the opposite sex is a choice and the choice in this story was made between the age of 17 and 20 so in my view, an enquiry yes but the massive sob story - no. It seems these days it's only bad if it affects a man or trans person that something is an issue. Women have been enduring hormone replacement/suppresents for decades now

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:21

There are fewer cries of child abuse when other medication in CAMHS is given.

That’ll be because the other medications aren’t unlicensed cancer drugs.

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:21

'People raising Safeguarding & Duty of Care concerns should be listened to in any service responsible for chidren & Vulnerable Adults.'

I agree of course.

'I think stopping giving life changing drugs to minors might be a magic answer.' - just for this mental health issue in children or for all? All medication carries risk.

SchadenfreudePersonified · 01/03/2020 16:24

I welcome it!

And I don't think she's doing it for cash - I suspect that it is so that political correctness won't be allowed to destroy other people's lives the way hers has been destroyed.

Everyone is so bloody frightened of being accused of transphobia - scientists and doctors are among people who have lost their jobs because they've stood up and say that

a) no-one can CHANGE sex

b) children are unable to say what "sex" they feel they are because they - their minds and bodies are changing all of the time, and that even if they do "feel" they are the opposite of their birth sex, they haven't got the maturity to make the decision to have radical, irreversible treatment

c) gender dysphoria should be explored in a mental health setting rather than everyone buying balloons and celebrating and insisting on irrevocable surgery and hormone treatment

d) if this was any other form of body dysphoria eg anorexia, there's NO WAY people would indulge the sufferer's delusions

e) there should be a "wait and see" policy - inevitably some people will end up training, but the majority will happily grow into the sex they were born into - and some will be straight and some will be gay

f) sex is not "assigned" at birth - it is determined

g) it is medically inappropriate and indeed, dangerous to treat a girl/woman as a boy/man or vice versa, because it means that some illnesses will be missed, others will be treated inappropriately, AND it will be a huge waste of scarce resources (eg calling transwomen in for smear tests)

I hope this court case will help to end the bloody madness that "trans" has become.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:25

GIDS is doing its best with too many referrals and not enough money for therapy . Which is exactly the same problem faced by every CAMHS service in the country.
GIDS try to encourage local camhs teams to keep their young patients for therapy regardless of their referral to gids- but the local services dont have the resources either.

The NHS protocols for children who are identified as trans does not make referral to CAMHS more likely & in many cases CAMHS will be hindered from working with due to the Memorandum of Understanding.

CAMHS has been short funded for many years
No doubt if some of the public money which has gone to lobbying organisations such as Mermaids, Stonewall, Scottish Trans Alliance etc then many children would benefit, including those put on the NHS GIDS pathway.

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:26

R0wantrees - yes, clearly there are different perspectives within gids and within the wider tavistock about this. That is not so unusual when working with such polarised and polarising difficulties.

I'm certainly not saying I know the answer in terms of treatment pathways- nobody does.
What I do know is that lack of talking therapy is directly linked to lack of funding. That is above and beyond any of the other pressures.

IchbineinBerlinner · 01/03/2020 16:26

So if a deeply troubled anorexic 15 year old went to the NHS for liposuction, and they facilitated this, and then she proceeded to get further fat reducing treatments until she finally resolved this issues herself, and realised that all the fat reducing treatments had caused her irreparable damage, should she be seek a review? What should she have done when she realised that similar inappropriate treatment was ongoing to others?

DuLANGMondeFOREVER · 01/03/2020 16:26

And I don't think she's doing it for cash

She definitely isn’t! It’s a judicial review, not a civil case seeking damages. There is no money in this for Keira at all.
She’s brave and I am very grateful to her for taking this on.

OvaHere · 01/03/2020 16:28

Not read the full thread as yet but in case nobody else has pointed this out she isn't suing them it's a Judicial Review which is a process whereby a Judge looks at whether official bodies have correctly interpreted and applied the law.

A scrutiny which is very much needed when providing life changing treatment for minors.

TammySwansonTwo · 01/03/2020 16:28

I'm alluding to the fact that it seems to be ok for girls as young as 12/13 to be given hormone suppressants and things that mess with their natural cycle and that's ok but if something affects a trans person oh god, there has to be a massive enquiry. The double standards annoy me a bit. One year on the depo injection at age 16 made me infertile for 11 years!

I have been on hormonal contraception since I was 12 years old - GnRHAs are nothing like hormonal contraception. They literally induce a pseudo-menopause. Women in menopause are given HRT because of the health risks associated with the physical state being induced here, especially women who go into early menopause.

Alsohuman · 01/03/2020 16:29

@IchbineinBerlinner, I don’t understand what point you’re making.

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:29

'The NHS protocols for children who are identified as trans does not make referral to CAMHS more likely & in many cases CAMHS will be hindered from working with due to the Memorandum of Understanding.'

Where have you got this from please?

I think in reality individual camhs service criteria change depending on what they can manage.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:31

'I think stopping giving life changing drugs to minors might be a magic answer.' - just for this mental health issue in children or for all? All medication carries risk.

Yes they do which is why there are expectations & standards for evidence based decisions which inform the prescription of medicines.
Maybe you missed Prof Carl Heneghan's review? His paper was published in the BMJ a year ago.
'Gender-affirming hormone in children and adolescents'

concluded:
"The development of these interventions should, therefore, occur in the context of research, and treatments for under 18 gender dysphoric children and adolescents remain largely experimental. There are a large number of unanswered questions that include the age at start, reversibility; adverse events, long term effects on mental health, quality of life, bone mineral density, osteoporosis in later life and cognition. We wonder whether off label use is appropriate and justified for drugs such as spironolactone which can cause substantial harms and even death. We are also ignorant of the long-term safety profiles of the different GAH regimens. The current evidence base does not support informed decision making and safe practice in children."

blogs.bmj.com/bmjebmspotlight/2019/02/25/gender-affirming-hormone-in-children-and-adolescents-evidence-review/

titchy · 01/03/2020 16:31

I'm alluding to the fact that it seems to be ok for girls as young as 12/13 to be given hormone suppressants and things that mess with their natural cycle

I'm still not clear what you're talking about? The contraceptive pill? In which case there is a wealth of evidence that demonstrates the pill is very safe with no long term side effects for 99.9% of teens. Not perfectly safe, but overwhelmingly so.

Puberty blockers have no such evidence at all. As the drugs used are not licensed as puberty blockers there won't be any long term research done to ascertain their safety either.

So far far far worse.

Mrschainsawuk · 01/03/2020 16:33

God she was over the age of 18 before any surgery and social services should get involved if anyone under 18 Wants to change gender to ensure that they have all the proper support in place she was also over the age of 16 before any meds were given I still blame parents not the NHS her parents also could have said no at any point and put a stop to it by taking legal action

Arthritica · 01/03/2020 16:34

Because we haven't had one for a page or so...

SHE ISN'T SUING THEM

It's a judicial review, Keira gains nothing, she's doping this to stop other young women from going through what she did.

FarFrom · 01/03/2020 16:35

R0wantrees I am not saying that hormone blockers should be used (or shouldn't) and I welcome the review. However, I think you might be surprised by the research evidence for other medication used. And I do support other medication treatment- which I know more about. The fact I know more about it though, also means that I know none of this is simple.

Lifeisabeach09 · 01/03/2020 16:38

I agree the NHS needs to stop performing (or financing) these procedures for teenagers. These processes should not be started until 20s, IMO, when hormones have settled and adult personality has started to establish itself.
The NHS should have investigated her reasons for wanting this treatment...
I don't agree the NHS should be investigating kids wanting to change sex unless it is severely negatively affecting the mental of the child.
The onus seems to be on the NHS these days for things that should be dealt with by parents, carers of children, not the health service.

R0wantrees · 01/03/2020 16:38

R0wantrees - yes, clearly there are different perspectives within gids and within the wider tavistock about this. That is not so unusual when working with such polarised and polarising difficulties.

Farfrom The issue at Tavistock GIDS is a failure of Duty of Care & Safeguarding.

Minimising the seriousness of the whistle blown concerns helps noone.

Hearhoovesthinkzebras · 01/03/2020 16:39

I agree with the posters saying that medics are trying to do their best from within a broken system.

What do people want the outcome from this JR to be? Stop GIDS from working with young people I presume? So what should happen to those young people? Do you want them to be just left to struggle with no help? What do you propose should take the place of GIDS?

What restrictions do you want to see put in for the treatment of these young people and how will you prevent the recommendations made being widened into other areas of medicine? If questions are raised about the ability of young people to give informed consent about this how can it be reasonable to allow them to give consent to other procedures?

Kikkoman · 01/03/2020 16:39

GOOD!! This is we need to happen. Mutilating and damaging children’s bodies.

Every single doctor that has chopped away or given a child these drugs needs personally suing