To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

I am not a fan of abortion on demand. In fact the legalisation of abortion was never about the choice of the mother but about protecting the mother if she was in a life threatening circumstances mentally or physically. I personally feel 24 weeks is quite late though give. Some babies can survive outside the mother from this gestation. I don’t think my views are extreme.

a non-life threatening disability such as Down's

Are you aware of the co-morbidities associated with Downs Syndrome?

www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/down/conditioninfo/associated

It is not solely about whether or not it is life threatening, the question of quality of life comes into it too. Then the impact upon the existing family just be considered also, how it will affect the parents - mainly the mother as caring roles still tend to fall to women by default - existing children, their financial situation, and so on.

I trust women to make the best decisions possible for themselves, and their families. If you want to decrease the number of abortions due to disability, increase the support for families in this situation, instead of restricting women’s right to choose whether they proceed with their pregnancy.

Freak - yes.

@FreakStar I trust women to make ok decisions about their own bodies.

The very low number of late term abortions tell me that I am right to do so.

*So, are those that are advocating for it being all about the woman's choice- her body, her right, etc. advocating for abortions to be allowed to full term for all pregnancies?^

I’m hardly out placard waving in the streets for it, and it won’t happen anyway, but I’d have no issues whatsoever if the law did change in this way. Women’s rights to me are always more important than the rights of the unborn.

Freak - yes

are those that are advocating for it being all about the woman's choice- her body, her right, etc. advocating for abortions to be allowed to full term for all pregnancies?

Some of us, yes. No one, no one at all, has a late-term abortion for shits and giggles. The circumstances in which one might be sought for 'social' rather than medical reasons would therefore have to be exceptionally dire. It's an uncomfortable prospect, sure: but so is forced birthing.

I too would be interested to see a breakdown of late term abortions by weeks. I would be very surprised indeed if the vast majority, if not all, were before 30-32 weeks.

@FreakStar some test results for complicated genetic conditions are only conclusive after 24 weeks.

Some foetuses are viable outside the uterus at 24 weeks but many who are born have severe disabilities and limited quality of life from being born so early. Some not all. So 24 weeks is used as a cut off because of that small survival rate. It is an artificially imposed barrier. At the end of the day the mother will have to care for the potential child for the rest of her life, so should have a choice as to whether she can do that, and the choice to reflect on text results received after 24 weeks. And most foetuses at that stage are very much wanted. It’s really not as simple as saying well 24 weeks is viable so bish bash bosh baby.

FreakStar yes I am advocating to remove all restrictions, but it would make no difference as no one really says "I think I'll wait until the last minute for a laugh"

Is that what the pro-lifers are pushing these days?

In fact the legalisation of abortion was never about the choice of the mother but about protecting the mother if she was in a life threatening circumstances mentally or physically

If that’s the case why does the abortion act allow abortion outside those parameters?

'People dont just go around aborting babies willy nilly at 39 weeks.'

And if they did, would you really want them to be the guardian of a small child anyway

So, are those that are advocating for it being all about the woman's choice- her body, her right, etc. advocating for abortions to be allowed to full term for all pregnancies?

Why is this line always used as a way to drown out pro-choice opinions? We support no restrictions on a woman's right to choose what happens to her own body therefore we think it's okay to terminate up until term? It is not about extremes. It is about a woman's right to choose and part of upholding the right to choose is that there are no restrictions on that choice, a limited choice is the same as choice.

As an FYI, over 92% of terminations in the UK occur before 12 weeks. Over 80% of them are carried out before 10 weeks. The majority of women ending a pregnancy because they don't want a baby get it over and done with as early as possible, the later abortions tend to be more complex cases. Those done after 24 weeks are all done for medical reasons.

a non-life threatening disability such as Down's.

Except DS isn't none life threatening and closely associated with serious heart conditions, but that's beside the point.

The implication and subtext of abortion shaming women within the thread title and the OP is the more pressing matter really.

I notice the OP has dropped a froth-bomb and then conveniently fucked off.

This is an emotive issue and one that I get particularly emotional about, for personal reasons.

My younger brother was born with severe spina bifida. He did not live for very long, but his short life was one of futile struggle and suffering. In 1984, they did not have diagnostic scans but there were signs from long before he was born that things weren’t entirely ok.

I loved and love him deeply, and I wish he had not been born. For his own sake. Not taking into account the lasting impact of his short life and death on my parents, my other brother and me. The pain would still have been there if we had lost him earlier - but I cannot believe it would have been worse.

A 20-week scan often doesn’t happen until 21 weeks, or even a little later. If a scan picks up a problem, you have a follow up scan, other diagnostics, you wait for test results. It does not take very much to bump up against 24 weeks. A friend last year spent seven weeks in diagnostics after her 12-week scan, and even then did not get conclusive answers.

Women in that situation should have time to reflect and decide what they can deal with, how they want to handle an incredibly difficult choice, what is best for them and their families. They should not be rushed into that choice by a deadline.

My brother’s name is Ian. Yesterday would have been his 36th birthday, but I wish it wasn’t. And I would not want any woman forced into experiencing that, and worse, forced into it in the full knowledge that she was going to experience it for up to four months before giving birth.

I have a severely disabled child. We were advised to terminate in pregnancy around 24/26 weeks and chose to proceed. It was at 34 weeks that the severity of the disability was evident after an MRI. Termination was still an option but we decided to take our chances.

My child could not eat, breathe, walk, talk and spent months in hospital on a ventilator needing 24 hour care at home after.

This was a choice I was given and that I took. Having the choice meant the world to me. I felt that I wanted this life and was not forced on me.

When I was pregnant on my second child there was a 25% chance of the same issues. I can say without any regrets that I would not have proceeded with the pregnancy if the same disabilities arose. I would not put a baby through the torture, numerous brain surgeries, a tiny body covered in scars.., it is painful to see the suffering.

DS is one of the many conditions considered. Unless you’ve lived this life you should are not in a position to force someone else to do the same.

People have a rose tinted idea of raising a child with special needs. The reality is ptsd, anxiety, loneliness, poverty

I used to work with young people with DS. Some were wonderful, some were... challenging . But they were all precious, unique individuals, as deserving of life and protection as you or me.

OP, I agree with you. I fervently hope their campaign succeeds.

I personally think the world is not a better place with forced pregnancies. Women are not just empty vessels for others to fill. And for the sake of the child as well as the potential mother: every mother a willing mother, every child a wanted child.

I agree, @LastTrainEast - I cant imagine any woman choosing to have a really late termination except for the worst possible foetal conditions - and it is going to be pretty rare for these to have been missed earlier in the pregnancy.

If I had found out, almost at the end of pregnancy, that one of the dses had had an untreatable, fatal condition, I would have carried them to term anyway, in hopes that the doctors were wrong and that something could be done - or if nothing could be done, I could maybe have a little bit of time with the baby. But if another woman made a different decision, I would know that she was heartbroken and I would not add to that pain by judging her.

I do believe that it is a woman’s body, and her right to choose.

If we are being truly non discriminatory and we say :

No, the world would not be a better place without Heidi

the same could be said about any aborted pregnancy. eg the world would be a better place if every aborted foetus had lived

And there is A LOT of statistical and sociological evidence to prove the contrary actually. Not to mention population control.

The reason why parents of DS get this option is usually because they HAVE decided to keep a DS baby but further testing (usually an amnio) has revealed the baby has other problems. DS is a spectrum but it can come with other genetic problems and some babies can be born without hearts / with cancer etc and would have such poor quality of life it would be better to terminate.

*without functioning hearts

@FreakStar yes, let's trust women with their own bodies and the foetus they are carrying.
As many have already said people don't choose a late termination lightly.

Thanks @hoik for the statistics.

@JassyRadlett 💐 for you and your family. A young baby in my family also died with complications of spina bifida.