To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

From the tiny number of post 24 week abortions, I imagine zero are people that get to 38 weeks and suddenly decide to do some last minute research into Down's syndrome, discover it's a bit more complex than cute high functioning kids they've seen in the media, and then opt for a last minute termination.

I have a friend that had one post 24 weeks, not for ds, but the baby would have been born with severe and complex disabilities, and life threatening physical problems. It wasn't just about her choice, she had to consider their other dc as well as the potential child's quality of life. Her partner, being a decent human being stayed out of the decision, beyond offering to support her either way, because he recognised it was her body first and foremost. And yet random strangers that won't be offering support seek to dictate that choice.

The same friend did tell me she spoke to someone that had a very late stage termination following an accident, and the impression she had from various hcps/ support groups was the disability terminations are usually not far beyond 24 weeks, the later stage are usually unforeseen circumstances, and astonishingly rare.

It is not policing bodies or removing all abortion rights to say 'This isn't fair, the rules should be the same for all.'

But you're ignoring the point about detecting any issues & timeframes

@Supersimkin2 is spot on.

Sorry, if I didn’t make myself clear.
I was not referring to cases where there are severe disabilities, particularly when they are diagnosed at a late stage.
I was only referring to cases where a completely healthy, normal foetus was aborted at term because it hadn’t been born yet. In reality I don’t think that it ever happens so is irrelevant but I find it insane that people can advocate for it.

Agreed @Binterested

As someone who scans babies in the womb. They are very much alive before they are ever born. It may be a inconvenient fact to some but personally I think the abortion should be brought down to 12 weeks. It was never mentioned to be a social choice and the law has been interpreted liberally. It’s not just about the mother but the child’s life too. The only exception for late abortions should be conditions which are fatal to the baby or children without brains. I just can understand how people aren’t horrified by late term abortions apart from the above exceptions.

YABU. And given the future of the NHS at the hands of the Tories is unknown, coupled with the fact that provisions for disabled people in general are a postcode lottery and often very poor and hard to access, I cannot be on board with women being forced to give birth to children with very complex needs when there just isn't the support for them or their children in our society. But we do so love telling women what to do with their bodies and then standing back and letting them sink, smug in the knowledge we've 'done the right thing'.

YABVU. Stories like Heidis are just lovely when Heidi is an only child to a lovely middle class family with parents in their 30s/40s. What if the mother already has a child with a disability or health condition? What if the mother is 16 or 17 and simply won't be able to cope? What if the mother can't afford to leave work to nurture her child, take them to appointments, take time off for heart surgery etc? It is the mother's choice for a reason.

@Catapillarsruletheworld
No one is saying a woman doesn’t have the right to choose, I just firmly believe that the lives of people with Down’s syndrome are worth the same as anyone else’s and the same limits should apply.

It's not about the foetus, it's about the woman carrying it, and her bodily autonomy.
Abortion as early as possible, as late as necessary, for whatever reason the woman wants because it is her body, and her that will be responsible for the baby.

I know plenty of people with Downs Syndrome who have happy lives, but I also see the huge effort and sacrifice behind that, especially as they reach adulthood, and if a woman does not feel equipped to sign up to that for life that is entirely up to her.

@SinkGirl I take my hat off to you.

The limits that are in place now are what they are for a very very good reason. This is an emotive topic that unfortunately clouds too many peoples judgements on the matter.

0.1% of all abortions in the UK happen after 24 weeks. That's 200 in 200,000 babies. People dont just go around aborting babies willy nilly at 39 weeks.

@Smileyaxolotl1 so somebody might possibly do the most extreme version of something that you disagree with so you make very emotive arguments that nobody should be given any choice at all what so ever. Come on now.

They are very much alive before they are ever born.

No shit. I don’t think anyone has said that foetues aren’t alive. That’s not the same as saying they should have the same rights as people who are already born.

And I find it appalling that someone like you is in the job you are in with such an attitude to abortion

DressingGownofDoom even then its only a lovely story for the first 50 years, until the parents die and the child is thrown on the mercy of the social care system.

beakerbabe72 why do you not care about before 12 weeks then? That doesn't seem very logical.

It’s not just about the mother but the child’s life too

It is not a child until it has been born and up until that point it is entirely about the mother. It is her body, her life, and she is the patient not the "child".

I hope you don't express these horrid opinions at work.

@beakerbabe72 nope. The foetus could not survive without the mother and she is more than an incubator who must be forced to give birth. It had to be her decision and her choice to carry to term and be a mother.

That was my thinking to @PointlessAddict, shouldn't be in that job.

If you really think that is ok, I find that genuinely terrifying

And do you find attempts to chip away at women's (you know, actual born people with legal personhood) bodily autonomy not terrifying? Heidi is a stalking horse. And the opening post is, as has already been pointed out, a steaming heap of disingenous bullshit.

Beakerbabe, What do you think the forced birth of an unwanted child does to a woman’s mental health? The Abortion Act is interpreted correctly.

It isn’t ‘about the child’, it’s about the woman’s right to dictate what happens to her own body, and her own quality of life. The reality of restricted abortion is not ‘saving babies’, it’s dangerous and illegal abortion, and that to me is far more horrendous than abortion could ever be.

@beakerbabe72
I just can understand how people aren’t horrified by late term abortions apart from the above exceptions

Because some people believe that it does no good to force a woman to give birth to a child she does not want, or does want, desperately so, but doesn't feel able to cope with.

I hope you hide your judgmental attitude at work.

I would not be in favour of restricting women's choices any further.

Some of the views expressed here are frankly, quite shocking!

I don't think discrimination is the correct term, but I can't think of any reason why a baby with Downs Syndrome should differ in terms of the abortion laws. If 24 weeks is the cut off term for a an abortion due to the current evidence on viability, then that won't differ for a baby with a non-life threatening disability such as Down's. Most people would consider it unethical to terminate a full term pregnancy for non-disabled babies, I can't see how the child having Down's Syndrome changes those ethics.

I take it the campaigners are also campaigning for massive financial support for parents who might have to give up their careers, easy and plentiful access to respite care and at-home nursing and carers, abundant counselling for the mothers, residential care, etc. before this law is changed. They must be, right? I mean they wouldn't revoke the law and leave women up shit creek without a paddle?

Oh, wait...

So, are those that are advocating for it being all about the woman's choice- her body, her right, etc. advocating for abortions to be allowed to full term for all pregnancies?

But complications due to DS can be Life threatening.

@FreakStar if necessary yes.