To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

Cruel to who?

If a woman is so sure that she is unable to raise a disabled child that she’s willing to go through the trauma of a late stage abortion, it seems to me that forcing her to continue with the pregnancy is not in anyone’s best interests.

I have two disabled children and believe this more strongly than ever. My boys are my whole world but the responsibility of caring for disabled children, possibly for the rest of your or their lives (and usually mothers), is all-consuming. I may never be able to work again, my children may never live independently, my life is completely different to that of the other parents I know. If a woman says she cannot do this then I can only see negatives in forcing her to do so.

If equality is the argument I’d rather extend the abortion rights for mothers regardless of gestation - let women abort without exception.

Good on her I hope she wins.

Yes some people with Down’s syndrome are higher functioning than others, just like some NT people are more able than others. But as far as I can see the majority of people with Down’s syndrome have a good quality of life.

My nephew is a gorgeous 4.5 year old little boy who happens to have Down’s syndrome. He is a joy, who puts a smile on the face of everyone he meets. He also met all his physical mile stones with in the normal range.

At 4 he is toilet trained day and night, he can run super fast and ride a scooter just like any other 4 year old. He can also swim, which many NT 4 year olds cannot do. He’s a real character and will have you in stitches, he’s loving and in tune with peoples feelings, but he’s no push over, he knows his own mind and can assert himself very well!!

His understanding is maybe a year and a half or so behind in some ways, but in others imaginative play for example, he doesn’t appear much behind his peers. He is also bilingual and can understand perfectly in two languages, and speak pretty well in both as well. He loves books and having stories read to him.

Should a child like him be allowed to be aborted at full term?

So you think women should be forced to give birth to babies when they know they don't have the ability to look after them?

No woman leaves having an abortion late for the fun of it.

Each situation has its own complexities and there should be no further restrictions on what a woman can choose in her own specific set of circumstances.

Reducing the limit may actually increase the abortion rate by hurrying the decision.

I also think there should be more positive information about DS though, to give a fuller picture of what it's like to have a DS child.

Yes. If the mother chooses to.

My friend at work has a daughter with DS. She didn’t know beforehand despite a 20wk scan. She openly admits that had the scan picked it up she would have terminated. Her daughter is fairly independent, been to a mainstream school (with 1-1 support), is hoping to have some form of employment so is definitely at the more able end of the spectrum. I did some voluntary work in a special needs school and some of those children would never life independently like my colleagues daughter is planning (perhaps with some kind of help like a complex). Despite all this my friend is still in favour of the right to choose. She does say though that when her daughter was diagnosed everything she read pointed to the doom and gloom and she never imagined her daughter would be achieving what she has

Howdidido Although I would never personally be comfortable with a late term abortion I think ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’ for all pregnancies. On balance I’m more uncomfortable with putting the rights of an unborn foetus above a woman’s right to bodily autonomy. We know late term abortions are very very rare and the reasons very complex.

I can't imagine that there are many women who carry their child for 38 or so weeks, and then just decide to terminate because they don't fancy having a child with Down's syndrome.

I actually had no idea that this was the law in the UK, but I would think that the laws are put in place to allow late termination, where it has become clear that the baby would be born with disabilities severe enough to have a massive impact on quality of life. Down's syndrome - as with many other things - covers a spectrum of issues, that can include severe heart and digestive system defects, and some issues don't present clearly until later in the pregnancy.

Since 2002 there has been literally one termination post-24 week abortion where cleft palate was cited as a factor. It can sometimes be indicative of other problems with the pregnancy so although cleft palate has been listed there may be other factors involved in the decision that are not recorded with these particular statistics.

www.parliament.uk/business/publications/written-questions-answers-statements/written-question/Commons/2017-11-21/114833/

Can't find the stats but this gynae/obs doctor, Dr Jennifer Gunter, in Canada does a great job of addressing these questions with medical knowledge and evidence (see her twitter).

My understanding is that such late abortions are extremely rare, and more likely to be for other major problems such as Edward's Syndrome , another trisomy, in which babies are terribly disabled, only half of those born alive live a week and most of the rest die in the first year.

From a personal point of view, I have extremely complicated pregnancies which leave me with long term health problems, so if faced with carrying a pregnancy to term, which would result in a baby unlikely to survive for long, it would not make sense for me to continue with the pregnancy, for either the baby's sake, or my own health. I would hope to make the decision earlier in the pregnancy, but by the time scans, amnios and consultants have been seen it could be well beyond 24 weeks.

I would not want to answer for someone else. The situation of a woman in a well supported relationship, with good physical and mental health, and plenty of money might be very different to someone who would be on their own, broke, and suffering clinical depression, in terms of whether they could reasonably support caring for a potentially severely disabled child.

In Down's syndrome the range of impact is quite wide, and I've friends and family who have Down's Syndrome to different degrees, from:
(1) needing to be in a care home, many connected health issues such as heart problems as well as needing constant care
(2) able to live in a supported care facility but independence will never be possible, deeply unhappy about her life and prospects, and
(3) actually turned out to have mosaic Down's syndrome, so likely to be able to live with support, and potentially hold down a simple job.

And your title is disingenuous. Believing that women should have this choice is not the same as saying the world would be a better place without any specific disabled person

The world would certainly be a sadder place without my beautiful children. That doesn’t mean I should be able to force others to do something they feel they cannot do, when I know how hard it is.

Sorry my reply was for @Catapillarsruletheworld you can make the argument as emotive as you want. My answer to your question is yes In my opinion.

Sorry but I am not buying into this.

Where are these hoards of women demaning abortion at 39 weeks?

I hope she doesn’t win and I doubt she will.

On what basis does she suggest she’s been discriminated against? The right to abort for foetal abnormality is effectively solely the choice of the mother (approved by her doctors), it isn’t anything to do with the child really. I’d like to see how the actual legal argument is made out.

You're either against women's rights or for them. You can't be for women to choose unless they choose something you don't like.

I would remove all restrictions, but it would make little difference. No one says "I'll just carry it for a few months first". The reason for last minute abortions is as someone said because they were waiting on test results.

I don’t think the world would be a better place for forcing women to have babies that they don’t want.

I do, however, believe that the world would be a better place for improving support given to parents of children with Down syndrome like Heidi rather than the huge amounts of cuts for services for the vulnerable that the government has made. Maybe if we did that then more women would feel able to keep babies like Heidi.

At the same time perhaps we could sort out our CMS system in order to support other vulnerable children in the U.K.

Do you really think it's okay to abort people like Heidi, just in case they turn out to be less able than her?

Yes

I am not in favour of any further restriction on abortion rights. Feel free not to abort for any disability or none, and I respect your decision, but your feelings are irrelevant to my decision. No woman should have to continue with a pregnancy against her will.

Whilst I would not abort with a possible risk of DS...

The PP who said :

There should be a trigger warning on this thread

Is quite correct

Many women on this site, have terminated for medical reasons, whilst this would not be my choice, I fully support a woman's right to choose, and I don't think anyone who has TFMR deserves to open a thread and relive, a difficult distressing decision and be made to feel like shit or a terrible person about that choice.

Equally the quality lives of people with Down's Syndrome deserve less prejudice and discrimination

to all affected by the issues raised

If a woman is so sure that she is unable to raise a disabled child that she’s willing to go through the trauma of a late stage abortion, it seems to me that forcing her to continue with the pregnancy is not in anyone’s best interests.

Exactly that ^^

And OP, your thread title is ridiculous.

No-one is saying the world would be a better place for goodness sake.

YANBU because it is discrimination. There should either be a 24 week cut off for all babies (excepting fatal/life threatening conditions) or no restrictions at all. I wouldn't mind which but the current way is clearly unfair and treats disables babies as 'lesser'.

Equality should mean women have the right to choose to have children or not. I’m in favour of abortion until birth if requested. That’s not to diminish anyone’s life or contribution to the world.

Other people have put this far more eloquently but abortion should be available early as possible and as late as necessary.

I don’t believe anyone is having a late term abortion on a whim, it’s not something you wake up one morning and just decide to do. To that end the rights and autonomy of the mother must always come before that of the unborn foetus.

I don’t believe she will or should win the case - how can you be discriminated against before you (legally) exist?