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Original poster

To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

958 replies

bridgetreilly · 27/02/2020 22:15

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

OP posts:
EineReiseDurchDieZeit · 27/02/2020 22:59

You know what, the thread title and OP are manipulative bullshit.

Basically, also clickbaity, so loads of people who've had abortions are clicking the thread unawares

WorraLiberty · 27/02/2020 22:59

You know what, the thread title and OP are manipulative bullshit. To equate women making the choice to terminate a pregnancy with people saying Heidi shouldn't exist is fucking stupid and offensive.

Exactly.

It makes me think that even the OP doesn't believe in what she's saying, otherwise there'd be no need for the misleading emotive crap.

Smileyaxolotl1 · 27/02/2020 23:00

pointless addict
They are being treated differently to foetuses without the same disabilities. Of course it’s discrimination.
Whether it’s necessary/ reasonable is a different matter.

PointlessAddict · 27/02/2020 23:00

You know what, the thread title and OP are manipulative bullshit. To equate women making the choice to terminate a pregnancy with people saying Heidi shouldn't exist is fucking stupid and offensive.

Totally agree

Nothing more than an attempt to further control and police women, who might I add would face the primary burden of caring for a severely disabled child that they are forced to carry, dressed up in emotive and patronising language to boot

Newtonpass · 27/02/2020 23:01

To equate women making the choice to terminate a pregnancy with people saying Heidi shouldn't exist is fucking stupid

But that is what people are saying. If Heidi was a 'normal' baby her mother would have up to 24 weeks to decide whether to terminate. As Heidi is, her mother could dexide to do it past the point of viability.

Either change it to both be a 24 week limit or remove the limit entirely (not my personal choice but would at least be fair)

I think people are letting their emotions cloud them to the fact that this is discrimination against disabled people.

Supersimkin2 · 27/02/2020 23:02

Non-issue because so few women have late abortions, let alone for Down's. But pro-lifers are always looking for ways to get in the news.

Abortion for disability is a right that must be protected - a hell of a lot of genetic diseases are worse than Down's.

Much, much worse than the pick-of-the-crop Down's teens that anti-abortion groups choose to wheel out.

I have never met a pro-lifer who believed first and foremost in supporting carers, as it happens. Or one who supported arranging adoption for forced birth.

PointlessAddict · 27/02/2020 23:02

They are being treated differently to foetuses without the same disabilities. Of course it’s discrimination

Who is?

Not Heidi, as she wasn’t aborted. So she’s not suffered less favourable treatment.

Aborted foetuses with Downs - potentially, but they clearly can’t raise claims of discrimination.

GothamProtector · 27/02/2020 23:02

It's not discrimination. Because a foetus doesn't have rights. It's not born.

midwestspring · 27/02/2020 23:03

This is a totally illogical argument OP.
I believe the world is a better place because my dc are in it that has nothing to do with other woman choosing to have an abortion.
There is no correlation between these two statements.

Rubyroost · 27/02/2020 23:04

and it is not possible to tell before birth where someone will fall on that spectrum

Actually it is... I had a tfmr at 13.5 weeks as had a very poorly baby with cystic hygroma and fetal hydrops. I was told by a fetal medicine specialist that I would miscarry natural if I didn't terminate. I later found out that the baby was t21. You're forgetting that you only see the down syndrome kids that actually survive. Many would be very poorly indeed and many don't survive past a certain gestation. I personally think we shouldn't change anything, it's up to the parents.

GothamProtector · 27/02/2020 23:04

No it's not.
It's individual woman making individual choices regarding the situations they are placed in at one moment.

None of which is yours, mine or quite frankly Heidis bloody business.

Newtonpass · 27/02/2020 23:04

Many children with DS can have and do have a good quality of life...but what about the ones that don't. Many mothers are unwilling to take that risk. I wouldn't

And your child may have developed cancer, become a druggy prostitute, developes a mh condition that left them suicidal.

No child is guaranteed a good quality of life.

Languishingfemale · 27/02/2020 23:04

Compelling a woman to continue with a pregnancy is wrong. Far too many people willing to police women's choices and bodies. No.

whiplashy · 27/02/2020 23:06

you are being extremely unreasonable. how dare you think anyone should have the right to police a woman’s body?! there should be zero restrictions on abortion.

MrsApplepants · 27/02/2020 23:06

Easy answer is to remove the time limit on all abortions. Ensures women keep their bodily autonomy, have enough time for tests and to come to the right decision for them and all foetuses treated equally.

Marmit · 27/02/2020 23:06

In the U.K. we (rightly) don’t ascribe personhood to fetuses so there is no discrimination here.

WorraLiberty · 27/02/2020 23:07

Any further thoughts on the replies so far OP?

You don't seem to have too much to say on the matter Confused

sandscript · 27/02/2020 23:07

If a woman is so sure that she is unable to raise a disabled child that she’s willing to go through the trauma of a late stage abortion, it seems to me that forcing her to continue with the pregnancy is not in anyone’s best interests.

Totally this. I was in this situation while pregnant with DD2. There were some complications picked up later in the pregnancy. I was eventually told she would "most likely" be fine in the end (although could only confirm once she was born), if I had been told she would most likely not be fine I would have probably taken a late term abortion if it was offered. And yes I know what it's like giving birth to a sleeping baby as I had a stillborn son a few years back.

PointlessAddict · 27/02/2020 23:07

think people are letting their emotions cloud them to the fact that this is discrimination against disabled people

I think it’s the other way round. People who have no concept about what has to be established to bring a successful case for discrimination are parroting that its “discrimination” but aren’t able to sensibly explain why this is

Heidi has not been discriminated against by this law. She might not like it and that’s perfectly valid for her to have whatever feelings she has but that doesn’t mean she’s suffered discrimination

IDoNotHaveABlackCat · 27/02/2020 23:08

How about we leave women's reproductive decisions with them, eh?

This is very simple. If it is not your uterus, it is not your business.

Other than regulation of actual quality of medical treatment, there should be no laws required around abortion at all.

People should pull their heads in and mind their own business.

Catapillarsruletheworld · 27/02/2020 23:08

Either change it to both be a 24 week limit or remove the limit entirely (not my personal choice but would at least be fair)

this

No one is saying a woman doesn’t have the right to choose, I just firmly believe that the lives of people with Down’s syndrome are worth the same as anyone else’s and the same limits should apply.

Although I agree with the poster that increasing the limit for all certainly wouldn’t be the choice I’d go with.

NemophilistRebel · 27/02/2020 23:08

Cleft palate diagnoses can be aborted to full term? Shock

IceWings · 27/02/2020 23:10

As a pp said, the lady speaking is very functional. Many are less so. Some are severely disabled and cannot speak or toilet unaided etc. Mothers need to have a choice about whether to take on the responsibility of caring for a severely disabled child, particularly when it’s a lifelong commitment which will probably be passed on to someone else upon her death.

My severely disabled relative with DS is on her fourth family carer. One marriage broke up because the spouse didn’t want to take on the responsibility. The current carer is doing so at the expense of his freedom and relationships with his own DC and GDC. He’s nearly 80 and there is no fifth carer lined up to cover (potentially) the next 20-30 years. The younger generation are nieces/nephews or even great-nieces/nephews, who are far enough removed to not really care what happens to her. I can see her ending up in a home unvisited. I wouldn’t judge any mother who chose to avoid that future for her child.

midwestspring · 27/02/2020 23:10

No child is guaranteed a good quality of life.

But a woman who has decided to go ahead with a pregnancy believes that they have the resources to support a baby, practical and emotional ones.
Those who opt for termination do not believe that continuing with a pregnancy is the best outcome.
It isn't helpful to try and insist women care for dc they do not feel they have the resources of whatever kind to do so successfully.

RainbowSlide · 27/02/2020 23:10

I agree that no changes should be made, and that no woman should be forced to continue a pregnancy that they do not want. If you don't agree, then don't have an abortion, but you can't make that decision for other women. I would have terminated a ds pregnancy. My cousin has ds, he is pretty able but at 50 he's now almost completely blind, will live with his parents until they die, and after that his younger siblings (able) will be responsible for him. Goodness knows what the plan is if both parents also require substantial care. I wouldn't do that to my existing children and wouldn't expect others to either.