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Original poster

To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

958 replies

bridgetreilly · 27/02/2020 22:15

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

OP posts:
PointlessAddict · 29/02/2020 16:16

Are we saying that people with Down syndrome are worth less than us?

I’m not saying that. Is that what you think?

I still don’t support Heidi’s campaign to change the law and hope she fails.

MarieQueenofScots · 29/02/2020 16:17

Are we saying that people with Down syndrome are worth less than us?

No. We’re saying every woman should have the choice whether to continue with a pregnancy or not.

Every woman should be entitled to decide whether she wants to bring a child with complex conditions into the world.

Shmithecat2 · 29/02/2020 16:19

@angell84

Are we saying that people with Down syndrome are worth less than us?

I'm not. But I am saying that a woman should be able to choose whether she continues with a pregnancy or not.

NYCDreaming · 29/02/2020 16:20

To those who say there should be no restrictions at all, it should be available on demand, do you really believe an almost term baby that would survive if delivered should be aborted on the mother's whim?

This doesn't happen. Nobody goes through the whole of pregnancy and all the hardships that come along with that and then goes in for an induction and says "You know what? I really don't feel like having a living baby today. Please stop its heart before you start the induction."

But yes, I do believe that all restrictions on abortion should be lifted because we should be trusting women to make their own decisions about their own bodies.

SinkGirl · 29/02/2020 16:21

This afternoon I’ve been to a monthly event for local disabled children and their families - the sort of thing that my friends with NT kids go to every week but we can’t access outside of these special sessions. It’s the one thing a month where I can take them and nobody stares or makes comments and my boys can play safely. This is the only time we will leave the house this weekend. There’s nowhere for us to go.

It’s the kind of group that the average person never sees. 50 disabled kids and their parents in a room together. There’s a massive spectrum of disability, including quite a few children with DS. Some of them are very able. Some are teenagers who can’t sit unsupported, are tube fed, can’t talk, can’t understand. This idea that all children with DS are joyous, happy, contented etc is not reality.

Unless you have a disabled child you won’t see these children. They’re not in your kids schools or at your toddler groups or at the swimming pool or at the supermarket.

If you get a DS diagnosis, you have no way of knowing where on this spectrum your child will fall. Some are happy to proceed knowing this. It’s not surprising that many are not,

NYCDreaming · 29/02/2020 16:21

Are we saying that people with Down syndrome are worth less than us?

Nobody has said that. Are you even reading what people are saying?

SinkGirl · 29/02/2020 16:22

I agree with NYC - this simply would not happen. A healthy mother with a healthy baby would not wait until the last possible moment to decide to have a termination. It’s a complete straw man.

RufustheLanglovingreindeer · 29/02/2020 16:23

There is no justification I feel for getting to term and not having the testing done. Those choosing not to terminate, ok, but they shouldn't have the right to claim on disability for the child or many services

i refused the testing for what i felt was a good reason

Thank goodness you don’t make the rules (or me...I’d be shit at it to be fair)

june2007 · 29/02/2020 16:24

Why do people think Heidi is a puppet or not fully aware? Because she has ds? Perhaps rthat says more about peoples knowledge of DS then anything else.

HeadachesByTheDozen · 29/02/2020 16:25

@FreakStar but I can't think of any reason why a baby with Downs Syndrome should differ in terms of the abortion laws. If 24 weeks is the cut off term for a an abortion due to the current evidence on viability, then that won't differ for a baby with a non-life threatening disability such as Down's.

Because it is not just about 'life threatening' disability - although Down Syndrome often includes heart defects which does fall under life-threatening - , it is about the impact the disability has. On the child, on the mother, on siblings, on society. Late term abortion exists mainly because of DS. And amniocentesis and scans were created due to DS. DS is the ultimate reason for an abortion late stage. I don't agree normally with abortion to birth, but with Down Syndrome I definitely think it should be really encouraged, we should be doing what we can to eradicate some disabilities. Not encourage it. Would I terminate a full-term healthy normal baby? No. But if I found out at week 39 that my unborn child had DS, you bet your bippy I would demand a termination. There is no way I would knowingly bring a child with DS into the world. If ever there is a reason for abortion, DS is it.

Bflatmajorsharp · 29/02/2020 16:26

bathsh3ba a baby's right do come into play at the exact moment that it is born.

Do you or anyone else really think that any woman has an abortion, let alone a third trimester abortion, on a 'whim'?

Or that any woman just 'demands' an abortion? You need to attend a GP/clinic at least once for exploratory appointment, have detailed discussions about the procedures, have two doctors sign it off then make an appointment to actually have the procedure.

What do you think 'abortion on demand' means? Women just showing up at a clinic, taking a ticket, waiting a few minutes then being operated on/induced?

If a baby is born alive it has the same legal rights as any other child. Until that time, it doesn't have any legal rights, same as any other fetus.

HeadachesByTheDozen · 29/02/2020 16:29

Why do people think Heidi is a puppet or not fully aware? Because she has ds? Perhaps rthat says more about peoples knowledge of DS then anything else.

Because DS is a developmental, cognitive and intellectual disability? And because by that very nature, they do NOT have the ability that we have to reason? That you think a DS person can the same intellectual and cognitive ability says far more about your lack of knowledge of DS than anything else.

angell84 · 29/02/2020 16:31

@NYCDreaming what?

Heidi is saying that the current laws make her feel worth less than the rest of us.

If we said that we can abort male babies up to 6 months, but we can abort female babies up to 9 months, how would it make you feel? It would make me feel like shit.

Phoebesgift · 29/02/2020 16:31

But if I found out at week 39 that my unborn child had DS, you bet your bippy I would demand a termination. There is no way I would knowingly bring a child with DS into the world. If ever there is a reason for abortion.

I'm horrified by this. You'd terminate at 39 weeks for Downs? What about adoption?

bathsh3ba · 29/02/2020 16:32

It may not be said directly but it is implied. Unrestricted abortion prioritises the mother's wishes above anything else including the life of a disabled child where unless you have a crystal ball you cannot predict what their life would be like. My sister is severely disabled. She is the happiest person I know. Yes she made my parents' life difficult as a child but I absolutely object to being told it would have been ok to deny her life.

If the law were really reason free from emotion it would see that a baby has as many rights five minutes before it is born as five minutes after. I think the law has more to do with it being cheaper to support abortion in these kind of circumstances than to provide the support and care necessary if those pregnancies were to continue.

And now I am getting angry so I will bow out.

MarieQueenofScots · 29/02/2020 16:32

Unrestricted abortion prioritises the mother's wishes above anything else including the life of a disabled child

Exactly how it should be

itsallthedramaMickiloveit · 29/02/2020 16:33

It was either on this thread or the other one that somebody mentioned a radio interview that she did. That she apparently couldn't answer a question even when given in different ways.

She is a puppet for the pro birth nutters.

If she feels so strongly about this let her enter into a real love and robust debate.

But they won't allow that will they?

MarieQueenofScots · 29/02/2020 16:34

Heidi is saying that the current laws make her feel worth less than the rest of us

Her right to feel like that. Not her right to police women’s uteri.

Fortunately the law doesn’t take people’s feels into account.

itsallthedramaMickiloveit · 29/02/2020 16:34

@Phoebesgift Honestly I would.

It wouldn't get to that ever but I would.
Because adoption is not an option for me.

itsallthedramaMickiloveit · 29/02/2020 16:35

Heidi is saying that the current laws make her feel worth less than the rest of us

The Heidi needs to seek therapy for her issues.

june2007 · 29/02/2020 16:36

She is not the only person with DS to stand up against these rules. Perhaps she does not have such a high IQ as someone with out DS, so now are we saying those with a low IQ or those who astruggle with a debate are worthless?

LBB2020 · 29/02/2020 16:36

I declined the screening and went on to receive a postnatal diagnosis of Down syndrome following the birth of my son. I do not in any way believe I have been selfish. He is a very much wanted and loved little boy. I’m currently pregnant with my second baby and will again decline the screening.

EC22 · 29/02/2020 16:38

I would not change the law.
Very, very few terminations take place at this gestation.

itsallthedramaMickiloveit · 29/02/2020 16:38

@june2007 She can debate if she wants to. But will she? A debate needs two opposing sides. So would she listen and be able to counteract the opposing side.

SinkGirl · 29/02/2020 16:39

If we said that we can abort male babies up to 6 months, but we can abort female babies up to 9 months, how would it make you feel? It would make me feel like shit.

Complete false equivalency, ignoring all the previous discussion of why the exemption is lifted in the case of disability. There would be no material reason to extend abortion rights for one sex over the other.