To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

@june2007 I know women who have given birth to babies who are incompatible with life due to having rare nameless conditions so died shortly after birth.

You are arguing that if in their subsequent pregnancies their next fetus had the same condition due to NHS screw ups where they were screened late they should be forced to give birth to a baby who would also die shortly after birth?

”@nolongersurprised it’s not emotive for me. I’m pro-choice. I’m just saying I wish there was more honesty.“

@Meltedicicle - it honestly seems that you will only believe people are being honest if they give the one reason you have decided is everyone’s ‘real’ reason (wanting a perfect baby). Why is it so impossible that people giving other reasons are still being honest?

I hope you have read @Hoik’s post above, and it makes you accept that the very real impact of disability on families is a valid reason to terminate a pregnancy if the foetus is diagnosed with severe disability.

Long-time MNers may remember a poster who had a very disabled daughter. Her life was so difficult and she had such unending struggles to try to get the help her dd needed, that at one point she thought there was no way she could carry on, and that she would have to give her dd to social services - that was the only way to get her dd the help she needed. In the end, she didn’t - but her story and her pain were utterly heartbreaking. I would not criticise anyone who decided they couldn’t cope with that life.

The way some people talk as if having a late Tfmr is just easy
I had a tfmr at 25+4
I didn't skip out of the hospital after his delivery all happy
i held my son and I cried and I screamed and I told him how sorry I was
my late tfmr was a baby who was very much wanted
But the decision I made was the right one

Awwww I'm sorry @booearing I had a tfmr and that was hard enough. I chose not to see the fetus due to self preservation and I still call him a fetus as my way of coping. I did have to give birth to him though and it was an horrendous experience. If course if he was older I would have held him. My furend had a tfmr at 24 weeks and she showed us the pics of her little one, it was so so sad and every anniversary she remembers him and is so distressed. She also visits grave regularly, despite having three children after him, she will never forget and will suffer pain all her life, as I am sure you will do too. X

Sorry should have said at 12.5 weeks

I also agree @booearing I feel no guilt, despite the upset and I believe my friend doesn't either. Because we know in our hearts we made the right decision 💕

so as not to discriminate on the basis of disability, just as we don't allow abortions to discriminate on the basis of gender.

This is about preventing disability births. We utilise medicine, ie vaccines to prevent serious illness for example. Why not utilise medical advancements and technological advancements to prevent births with disabilities? Why are you suggesting that we should encourage disabled births? DS is not something to encourage and while we may not have a vaccine to break the genetic code, we can certainly do all we can to discourage these births.

There is no justification I feel for getting to term and not having the testing done. Those choosing not to terminate, ok, but they shouldn't have the right to claim on disability for the child or many services. The whole point, is prevent these births. Not encourage it.

I don’t agree with this either and I find this position rather sad. The point is choice. If you feel able and willing to bring a child with DS into the world then you should be supported to do so.

There are big questions about the long term care of the child, when you’re gone though. I suspect that’s the sticking point for many people.

To those who say there should be no restrictions at all, it should be available on demand, do you really believe an almost term baby that would survive if delivered should be aborted on the mother's whim? It's possible to take being pro-choice too far. At some point the baby's rights come into play and have to be balanced against the parents'. People may disagree as to when that point is and I would like to see abortion restricted further but up to birth, seriously? That is all kinds of wrong.

A baby has rights the moment it exists its mothers body. End of.

Why is the solution limiting women's rights,choices and autonomy over their own bodies further rather than putting the limit up for everyone?

That would also make things equal.

Typing 'end of' doesn't automatically make you right, you know... I disagree.

Most children with Down’s syndrome have a good quality of life
No, they don't, @Catapillarsruletheworld . On the contrary. Most have health problems and will never be able to live a normal life.
And you're also ignoring the impact on the family. The parents, the siblings (who have to take second place due to issues the Down Syndrome child has, and having to take over care after parents die). Community/finance/health and disability services.

It's all well and good saying oh isn't cute bless him he has a lovely life, lets ignore the fact he has a lovely life only due to the efforts and stresses of his parents/siblings and services that taxpayers support. So easy to say they have a 'good quality' of life.....what about the siblings' quality of life? What about their rights?

@bathsh3ba

PP is right as that is the law.

I have to follow the law but I don't have to agree with it or think it is morally right.

@bathsh3ba No. what makes me right is that rights are defined in law.

So I am right. You can disagree but you are factually wrong.

There is a spectrum and you don’t know where your child will end up. Whether she likes it or not, many are significantly l as able than her and many families are significantly less able to cope than hers. I feel very much for her argument but there is no scope for a one size fits all approach to this situation.

*Non-issue because so few women have late abortions, let alone for Down's. But pro-lifers are always looking for ways to get in the news.

Abortion for disability is a right that must be protected - a hell of a lot of genetic diseases are worse than Down's.

Much, much worse than the pick-of-the-crop Down's teens that anti-abortion groups choose to wheel out.*

Agreed. Ironically I believe Heidi being used like this in other point in pro-termination. Unfortunately because Heidi is not fully aware and doesn't know better, she is being used by pro-lifers. Pro-lifers use people like Heidi 'oh look! How cute she is. Imagine aborting them'. If anything, I think someone with the disability Heidi has been used as a prop, it's sickening and if anything it is more reason to keep the law and encourage terminations. It really annoys me when people think they are being so profound and making such an important statement by posting these clips of people with disabilities, I find it disgustingly exploitative and voyeuristic.

@Newtonpass *And your child may have developed cancer, become a druggy prostitute, developes a mh condition that left them suicidal.

No child is guaranteed a good quality of life.*

That's not the point. There is a difference between not knowing what will happen to an otherwise scanned and tested healthy baby, to knowingly bringing a child with disabilities out into the world. You cannot compare them.

So basically you are saying someone with disabilities doesn't have a life worth living?

@bathsh3ba nobody is making these wildly generalized statements.

That would be down to that person to say.
But tragically some people have said that due to their disability their life has been awful.

Just as parents have said that had they known then what they know now they would've aborted.

Are we saying that people with Down syndrome are worth less than us?

That's not the question really is it.

The question is about foetus' with diagnosed disabilities and what the woman carries them decides.