To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

I have a child with sn and dneice with complex medical needs and severe lds.

I am resolutely pro choice, whatever the reason for the termination, as is my dbro (dad of dneice)

Both I and dbro believe it would have been justified to terminate the pg with dneice even after 24 weeks.

If we said that we can abort male babies up to 6 months, but we can abort female babies up to 9 months, how would it make you feel? It would make me feel like shit.

Sure, it would say a lot about how society sees people. I would be campaigning for both to be up to term though, and I get the feeling that you wouldn't be.

To be clear, would you support the removal of restrictions for aborting healthy babies in order to get equality for disabled foetuses? Because if you wouldn't then you can't really say that this is about equality.

To be clear we have been told by dr that dn’s condition is one of the very rare situations that would justify termination after 24 weeks

She is not the only person with DS to stand up against these rules. Perhaps she does not have such a high IQ as someone with out DS, so now are we saying those with a low IQ or those who astruggle with a debate are worthless?

This is a ridiculous statement. It’s pointless even responding because you just keep throwing out manipulative nonsense that has no bearing on the discussion.

My children are not worthless. They are wonderful. But they don’t have the ability to argue a point of view. This is not the equivalent of being worthless.

LBB2020 and I absolutely defend your right to refuse screening too.

@SinkGirl I don’t know any parents of children with downs who are on their knees, no. The parent I know who is on her knees and really struggles with her kids is a single mum of 2 boys (no SEN).

There are a handful of children with severe health issues but I would say the vast majority have no or minor ones.

Yes DD gets DLA and has an EHCP. I’ve never known anyone say they’ve terminated or wished they had terminated because of those processes though.

Melted, I know a number of sn parents who’ve told me they would have terminated had they known. None of these dc had downs, but if people know you are anti termination then they will not tell you

@Hoik sorry to hear of your struggles but your post suggests your DC don’t have Downs, is that right? My comment was about siblings of children with Downs.

Well obviously no one has ever terminated a baby because of the need for an EHCP or DLA

But I am absolutely choosing not to have more children because of the increased risk of future children having the same disability and if I got pregnant I would have to terminate. The EHCP process has been the straw that has broken my back and I could not go through all this again.

I simply do not believe that you know lots of parents of disabled children and none of them are struggling to cope.

Heidi is saying that the current laws make her feel worth less than the rest of us.

That’s unfortunate for her. I don’t see why she would feel that way given she has family man’s friends who clearly love and value her. But that aside the laws don’t exist for the sole purpose of her feelings.

Family and friends

@Onceuponatimethen sorry I’ve no idea what you mean by that. I’m pro choice and my points have been about Downs.

There are a handful of children with severe health issues but I would say the vast majority have no or minor ones.

@Meltedicicle I think it was @Hoik who posted this article earlier in the thread: www.nichd.nih.gov/health/topics/down/conditioninfo/associated

• Almost one-half of babies with Down syndrome have congenital heart disease
• More than half of children with Down syndrome have vision problems, including cataracts (clouding of the eye lens) that may be present at birth. The risk of cataract increases with age.
• Up to three-quarters of children with Down syndrome have some hearing loss.
• People with Down syndrome are much more likely to die from untreated and unmonitored infections than other people. Down syndrome often causes problems in the immune system that can make it difficult for the body to fight off infections, so even seemingly minor infections should be treated quickly and monitored continuously.
• Children with Down syndrome are much more likely than other children to develop leukemia
• Poor muscle tone and low strength contribute to the delays in rolling over, sitting up, crawling, and walking that are common in children with Down syndrome.

That isn't even all of it, go and read it!

What about adoption?

Yes, because there are people queuing up to adopt disabled children.

Adoption also doesn’t resolve the serious health issues that the child might have. It just makes it someone else’s issue to deal with.

@winniethekid There's always adoption. I wouldn't like to see the Icelandic situation here where the abortion rate for DS is 100%.

Spoken by someone who has no idea what adoption is and the complexities. Adoption ruins some people's lives. And no one wants to adopt a DS baby, so you don't seem to understand that DS babies live in homes and are not adopted.

On the contrary! Iceland is an example of proper diagnostics and action. I personally believe there should be no DS births, not in 2020, and 100% terminations is what we should be aiming for.

She is not the only person with DS to stand up against these rules. Perhaps she does not have such a high IQ as someone with out DS, so now are we saying those with a low IQ or those who astruggle with a debate are worthless?

Literally no one has said that. But her opinions and feelings don’t give her the right to seek to remove other women’s rights.

I wouldn't like to see the Icelandic situation here where the abortion rate for DS is 100%.

No it isn’t.

www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2017/11/28/lets-talk-about-iceland/

Includes links to stats from WHO

@Phoebesgift Absolutely I would! I would not bring a DS child into the world on my conscience. I think it is selfish and reprehensible. I just cannot understand anyone arguing for it.

And adoption? Are you serious? Do you think people are lining up to adopt a child with DS? You are painfully naive of the reality. No one wants to adopt a child with a disability. Sadly they only want healthy newborn babies. Hence why DS babies rarely get adopted and are instead brought up in institutions.

@SinkGirl well do you mean disabled as in all disabilities in which case, yes I know people with autistic children who I would say ‘are on their knees’ to use your phrase. For those with a single diagnosis of Downs (not a dual diagnosis of downs and autism) then no I wouldn’t use those words to describe them. DD2 is at primary school with 3 children with Downs and I know 2 of those parents very well and they cope fine. I’ve come across probably a hundred families through the support group and I can only think of two families in 12 years where they’ve had problems over and above what i would say a ‘normal’ family would have and in both instances there were other factors within the family that caused the problems rather than Down syndrome.

Sorry to hear about the EHCP process trouble you’ve had. We were lucky as it went fine for us, I found the worst thing has been trying to move DD to a special school while she was in primary. That made me need the wine!

I personally believe there should be no DS births, not in 2020, and 100% terminations is what we should be aiming for

This is getting offensive now.

There’s no more justification for forcing abortions than forcing births.

The woman’s choice.

Everyone else and their ideologies need to fuck the fuck off.

What laurie said

Agree @LaurieMarlow

There will always be women who decline testing or even if they do have it would not act on the result. They are as entitled to have their rights as protected as women who would make different choices

for me, it's a feminist issue. In every single family I know where there is a child with DS or similar condition, the Mum has taken time out of work completely (or works very very part time) to look after the child with extra needs. In every single case, the child with DS or special needs has very serious needs which take a huge toll, both physically and mentally (on the carers)
In one case, a very happily married couple we know split up because the husband couldn't cope with the massive shift in their relationship when their daughter with DS was born. And their other child, by their own admission, gets very little attention because they just don't have the time.
When I red posts on here which say that they know or have children with DS and their children are fine, with no additional issues and don't put a strain on family life, I'm always surprised. Even without any of the many physical issues which children with DS have, the fact that they need constant care either in supported or residential living for the rest of their lives, places a strain on the immediate and wider family. And usually on the female members of the family.

I agree with peoples rights.

But I honestly can't fathom why someone wouldn't take all the testing.

Some babies require surgery at birth. How would somebody feel if they didn't accept the testing and they're baby died because of a preventable reason.

@NYCDreaming I am more than aware of issues kids with downs can have, there’s no need to be patronising, but what I’m saying is a lot of children either have no issues or minor ones.

So on that list you’ve posted about low muscle tone which causes delay in things like crawling or walking. So that’s true but I wouldn’t say that was a major issue. DD crawled and walked later than other children but she, and the vast majority of children with DS are doing so by the age of 3 and a half.

‘Some hearing loss’ can mean anything from slightly reduced to totally deaf. Same with sight. Most of those can be counteracted with hearing aids and glasses.

So around half have a heart condition but of those around 1 in 5 have a serious one. That means not only do half not have any heart problems, the majority of ones that do only have mild issues.

But people look at lists like the one you’ve posted
and panic when the reality isn’t like that for a lot of children.