To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

It is being campaigned against by many parties. So how long will it be legal for?

Campaigned for by people who think women shouldn’t have bodily autonomy.

Abortion will never not happen. What would be banned would be safe abortion for women.

As I’ve said before anyone who campaigns against abortion is nothing but arrogant.

It is absolutely not the same as Nazis. How fucking ridiculous to say. People should stop bringing Nazis into EVERYTHING.

Nobody is saying disabled people are worth less. The extended time limit is not a value judgement, it’s extended because that time is necessary for testing, results and the processing of those results. DS is on the list of allowable conditions for late stage TFMR for a reason, and it isn’t because the medical community hate disabled children.

Those who have late stage terminations for medical reasons are mostly women who desperately want their child, mostly babies with severe disorders which are incompatible with life, or which would lead to death very quickly.

If you had something show up on a 20 week scan and then underwent further testing and found out at 28 weeks that your baby had a very severe disability, a high likelihood of dying quickly and very limited quality (if any) of life, what would you do? These women have to deliver these much wanted babies whatever they choose - do you think anyone would choose this without very good reason?

And how would you feel about someone likening you to a nazi for having to make this decision?

Do you want to be 70 years old with a severely disabled adult child reliant on you, with no one else to support them and terrified of what happens to them when you die? Fancy putting your disabled child into a residential care home knowing that some are very abusive, when your child can’t communicate with you and tell you if someone has harmed them?

It’s so easy to say what you would and wouldn’t do when it isn’t something you actually have to worry about.

Hoik I couldn’t agree more

Des I promise you I’m really not. I appreciate the sentiment though :)

Heidi has the right to her views, and to campaign in relation to them.

It doesn't mean that her interpretation of why people have terminations is accurate, or that the reproductive choices of other women are her business.

@SinkGirl perfectly said

Heidi has the same rights as everyone else.

Some people have abortions at 6 weeks because they got pregnant on a one night stand, or because they are teenagers. This doesn't mean that people born of a one night stand would have a credible platform to campaign to end abortions after 5 weeks, or that those who agree with access to abortion wish they were dead.

Wise words @SinkGirl

@angell84
"The Nazis killed of weak and disabled people.

As Heidi says, we are also saying that disabled people are worth less than other people"
I can see why you've made this link as theoretically both Nazi ideology and the current ability to abort DS fetuses could produce the same result i.e. the eradication of Down Syndrome.

I think it's important though to examine motive.

The Nazis were not concerned with the potential suffering of those with DS or the burden that having a child with this condition could place on a family unit. They weren't concerned that society was unwilling and potentially unable to fund proper care for those effected and how this would impact someone born with DS not only in the short term, but in the long term. I don't think they worried about the consequences of a DS child outliving their parents and leaving them alone in a world where they have potentially lost their main advocates and facing a future where they are much more susceptible to some of the most debilitating health conditions.

Abortion can be an act of love. It can be done to protect someone not born yet from unnecessary suffering and a poor quality of life. Abortion can be an act of survival. Not everyone has the ability or resource to carry, give birth to and care for a child with DS for the rest of their lives. For most women and families abortion isn't about eugenics and creating a master race.

Thank you @Bumpitybumper

The Nazi comparison is so deeply offensive.

I agree sylvanian

Dreadful thing to say

Did you really compare women who have had a termination for medical reasons with Nazis?

Evidence of Godwin’s Law - Reductio ad Hitlerum.

@angell84 - do you think forced pregnancy is OK? Would you be happy to go back to the days of illegal, backstreet abortions and the suffering they caused to women?

Because that is what will happen if abortion is criminalised again.

Uh huh. Sure, OP, I'll gladly give birth to a baby with DS and expect YOU to do all the personal care as he/she grows into an adult.

Cause I'm not doing it.

As early as possible and as late as necessary.

There are very few late term abortions but I can't find a link to breakdown of abortions by week of pregnancy. Can the people talking about 38 week abortions for babies with ds give some evidence that this has ever happened in the UK? I can't find anything to suggest it has.

I am pro choice, none of this pro choice 'but' bollocks you get on these threads. I would have terminated if either of my children would have tested positive for DS, we don't have a lot of money and one parent giving up work would be hard and we would struggle to afford the therapy and support a disabled child should have (and the authorities don't have the resources to fully support). I have worked with people with DS who have dementia and it's always such a worry and strain to their parents who are often elderly by then, concerned about who will care for them and if they're in 24 hour care who will advocate for them when they're dead.

we are also saying that disabled people are worth less than other people

No-one is saying that; people are saying that we now live in an economy that is happy to force parents - even single parents - to raise children while working 2 or 3 jobs
Suitable childcare is hard enough to find if they don't have additional needs.

people have rights. A foetus does not have rights, beyond as humane and early an abortion as possible.

life does NOT begin at conception unless you are a god-believer. If you are, don't have an abortion.

pro choice with no 'but' to follow.

@LangSpartacusCleg Never heard of Godwins Law until now but my God is it true!

"I genuinely cannot comprehend the mentality of people who believe that viable babies (without medical issues) should be allowed to be terminated until the moment of birth. I know these cases are incredibly rare in reality but the idea that some people think it ok to kill a baby who is full term as the mother’s rights are more important than the life of a baby is abhorrent."

I agree

A lot of pregnancies are terminated because of Down Syndrome but I don’t see why the 24 week limit is a big issue. You can have the Harmony test from 10 weeks. If people want to terminate because of Down syndrome the odds are that they’ll have done that way before 24 weeks. The very small number of pregnancies that are terminated this late are much more likely to be because of other health complications or conditions that are incompatible with life.

Brilliant posts from SinkGirl. I have a child who has autism, 'high' functioning but I would have absolutely terminated had I know beforehand. The impact on our lives due to this has been like a grenade in the sitting room with the family sat in it. He's completely unaware of this, totally oblivious to the unimaginable strain of it all and I consider suicide often.

If you want to restrict abortions you first have to provide for the parents coping with disabled children, and children who need to live in care full time.

At the moment, you want to vote for swingeing benefit cuts and austerity.

Spot on! It's a fucking nightmare right now. And will get worse. I wouldn't wish this on my worst enemy.

we are also saying that disabled people are worth less than other people

You might think that, I don’t.

Late abortion for medical reasons is in my mind not about any value judgment on the life of the unborn baby. It’s about the mother and what she wishes. I am sure most people don’t abort a much loved baby because they think it’s life is worth less but because they wish to protect their baby from a life of pain and suffering and also maybe because they don’t feel they can cope with what the child’s disablity would bring to their and their other children’s lives

angell84 is using the 'abortion = holocaust' trope, as trotted out regularly by extreme forced-birthers in the USA. I wonder why s/he is so anti-women?

NerrSnerr I'm pretty sure that statistics about the exact week that pregnancies are terminated aren't in the public domain. They're categorised as 'before 10 weeks (80% of abortions), before 12 weeks (92%), after 24 weeks (0.1%)' etc.

There are fewer than three hundred terminations of pregnancy carried out post 24 weeks in the UK, the vast majority being just after 24 weeks and next to none in the third trimester.

Given that screening tests are carried out in the first trimester and an option for diagnostic tests indicated by either these or the anomoly scan carried out around 20 weeks, it is extremely unusual for a woman who has opted for testing to not know that her pregnancy has complications until the third trimester.

There should be legal provision for the women in this situation not to continue their pregnancy of course, regardless of the predicted/diagnosed health status of the foetus.

Heidi has the right to make decisions about her own pregnancies - I would support her in campaigning for all women to have that too.

Baileys this has always been the modus operandus for the anti-choice/forced birth movement.

They have no coherent, rational arguments so resort to emotional manipulation and exaggerated analogies.

You can have the Harmony test from 10 weeks

Is it available on the NHS?