To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

Posted too soon.

There is a reason people say ‘as early as possible, as late as necessary’.

Earlier is better, less painful, less invasive, less likely to have health consequences for the woman. It is cheaper too and there more options earlier than later.

Late abortions are not the first option, they are a last resort.

It is the height of arrogance to assume your opinion means more than bodily autonomy for any woman.

This in spades. I am completely against abortion for me as a personal decision. I am 100% pro choice, women should always have the right to choose what they do with their bodies. Forcing someone to stay pregnant when they don't want to be is as unfair as someone telling you to have an abortion against your wishes. We all believe different things, why should my beliefs supersede a women's beliefs and choices for her own body?

Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

Yes because women making this incredibly tough decision are sitting by a calendar waiting for the last possible minute to terminate

This is a difficult topic. There are a few things to consider, should women have to give birth to a baby they don't want for any reason? Even a fairly 'frivolous' reason such as they found out its a boy and they wanted a girl? If parents don't think they could cope with a disabled child is it better to abort? Everyone's moral line will be slightly different. I dislike the idea of allowing late term abortion for a frivolous reason but at the same time wouldn't want to remove a woman's choice from the matter. I do not think disability is a frivolous reason, I think I would struggle with a disabled child and probably would have had an abortion if I found out this was likely (although I think I would do it asap not wait till term :/)

It’s worth pointing out that the people we see with DS are not representative of the condition. DS can cause severe health problem including congenital abnormalities that are picked up in pregnancy often leading to parents choosing to abort. It’s very easy to look at perfectly healthy individuals and say that it’s wrong to abort DS foetuses but realistically conditions like DS can cause a lot of health problems. Even where there are no health complications, not all parents have the capacity to care for a child with DS. Doctors wouldn’t be performing late term abortions without a genuine medical reason under the current laws. Preventing them from doing so isn’t going to prevent parents from aborting DS foetuses anyway.

"Perhaps if we actually funded social care or carers allowance or SEN provision or disability benefits or respite care properly, people wouldn’t be so terrified of having a disabled child. Perhaps if you didn’t have to fight for every crumb of support it would be different. But no one is proposing that, are they?"

I couldn't agree more, @SinkGirl. Having read some of the accounts on here of people's struggles to get even the bare minimum of support for their child's additional needs, I can fully understand why some parents don't think they would be able to cope.

My niece was born with DS, it didn't show up on the 20 week scan. She's now 10 with some heart problems and severe learning difficulties - she will never be able to live alone. She lives in NZ, where her parents moved to long before she was born and stayed to care for her dad's mother while she died of Alzheimers, there is no other family in NZ.

My SIL now has cancer. BIL knows that he will be caring for his DD for the rest of his life, but after that, she'll be completely reliant on whatever state support he can fix up for her. Its heartbreakingly difficult and seeing it dismissed in Sally Phillips' facile way is unhelpful.

If the law is changed, I suspect there will be far more terminations. Most people won't wait to find out how bad it could be, they'll hear the words and book the abortion - it will be a very effective way to eradicate DS completely.

Is forced birth the new term now?

What would you call the alternative? Anti-abortion only works if you're referring to yourself only.

Otherwise the clear result of denying abortion is forcing women to give birth.

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant Agree. However, I would not choose to have a child like Heidi. I would use my right to choose what to do with my body and abort a child with disabilities.

She is amazing but I hope she loses.

"Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all."

@Nowayorhighway - I doubt any woman chooses a near-term termination unless they find out at that point that the foetus has some fatal/life limiting/untreatable condition.

The percentage of abortions that happen post-24 weeks is very small - in England and Wales, the percentage that occur over 24 weeks is 0.1% - and whilst we do not have the figures to hand, I would be very surprised if the vast majority were not before 32 weeks.

I aborted my baby boy, who had DS.

It wasn't about thinking the world would be better without him. He was loved. I wasn't worried particularly about coping - though I've no doubt that raising a child with additional needs is very ha rd.

He had severe physical abnormalities and hadn't grown for several weeks. He was very unlikely to survive. I didn't want to put my other children through that. I didn't want people fussing over my big, pregnant belly, with us knowing his prognosis.

Many people with DS have much harder lives than shown in the media - leukaemia, dementia, life-limiting cardiac issues, severe bowel malformations, self-harm, profound communication difficulties. It's very easy to see a high-function person with D'S and think that people who abort are callous monsters. It's harder to take a gamble that the baby you are growing, that you love, will be ok, when the odds are against it.

Btw before I was in this situation I never thought I'd have a termination for Downs.

To the people saying there should be no restrictions at all- is it acceptable to have an abortion because of the sex of the baby?

It’s unfortunate but not a reason to restrict abortion rights.

If it seems that many women are choosing to abort a particular sex, then the remedy is changing society’s prejudices against that sex. Not restricting abortion rights.

The same applies to disabilities. If it seems many women are choosing to abort on the basis of a specific condition, the remedy is changing attitudes towards, and providing more support for, that condition. Not restricting abortion rights.

Many people with DS have much harder lives than shown in the media - leukaemia, dementia, life-limiting cardiac issues, severe bowel malformations, self-harm, profound communication difficulties. It's very easy to see a high-function person with D'S and think that people who abort are callous monsters. It's harder to take a gamble that the baby you are growing, that you love, will be ok, when the odds are against it.
This 100%. The majority of people with DS are not like Heidi.

I had no idea the abortion limit was extended to birth for Downs Syndrome, I find it extremely upsetting and unsettling. I completely support abortion and I have a friend who terminated at 26 weeks for medical reasons which was not an easy decision for her at all. Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

It’s not extended for DS. It’s extended for medical reasons, for women like your friend. If this campaign succeeded in changing the law, your friend would have been forced to continue with her pregancy.

Nobody waits until full term for no reason. Nobody gets to 24 weeks and thinks “well I have all the info I need now but I quite fancy waiting another 15 weeks to do it”.

It seems that if you have a disabled child or children, you’re expected to be massively offended by others saying they would choose to abort a disabled child.

I’m not. Because i know what life is like with disabled children. I struggle to cope. I understand why others believe they could not cope and choose not to find out, because once they are born you are expected to be able to cope with anything that’s thrown at you.

I don't support any change that would further restrict women's right to choose.

I refuse to judge someone for not wanting their life or their child’s like to be like this. I love my children more than anything but I’m not going to pretend it’s not really fucking hard, or something I would choose.

It's because we're expected to be saint-like in our patient, quiet devotion to our children because like I've been told more than once by people with no clue "God only gives special kids to special parents...". It's okay for other people to say that it must be so hard (sympathetic head title optional) and they don't know how we manage (second head tilt to back up the first) we must be a Super Mum (encouraging upper arm pat, but we ourselves are not supposed to complain that its hard.

Of course if our children dare act in a way that does not fit in with the norm and impacts in any way upon NT people's very important NT people business the we will be told "you should have predicted your child would act in this way (because we're mind readers, natch) and you should have stopped them before they started, its not hard ..."

@SinkGirl Thank you for your very sensible posts on this thread. From reading your other threads, I think you're a marvel (but I know you have no choice in the matter).

It seems to me that some people take personal offence at what someone else chooses to do. Someone choosing to abort a child with DS or some other serious health condition isn't some kind of judgement on parents who choose not to or suggesting that their child doesn't deserve to live (like the thread title suggests). It's case by case and about the life of the woman who is carrying, birthing and, let's face it, going to end up being the primary carer for a disabled child, as well as the outlook for the child, emotionally as well as physically and practically.

It's fine not to want to abort your own child and to choose to have a child with DS or insert condition here. But it's also fine for someone else in a different situation to make a different choice from you.

@LochJessMonster
The majority of people with DS are not like Heidi
Exactly!

As someone that has an adult relative with DS, I get extremely frustrated with the drive to gloss over the very real and often tragic health conditions associated with the syndrome.

Even if you have a relatively high functioning child without the heart issues etc commonly associated with DS, the child will still be more predisposed to a whole range of conditions that will strike in adulthood such as diabetes and early onset dementia. The nature of these conditions mean that they are often extremely difficult/impossible for adults without DS to manage effectively and those with DS are often a lot less well equipped to deal with the physical and emotional aspects of these conditions. Of course in the vast majority of cases the family will be left with the burden of caring for the person with DS and IME deterioration of the parents' health often seems to coincide with the deterioration of their child with DS. This can be unbelievably stressful and heartbreaking for all involved and can lead to caring responsibilities being passed onto siblings who could well be balancing responsibilities related to their own children, parents and a disabled sibling all at the same time.

Unsurprisingly you never see much coverage about the 40 year old DS man that suffers with dementia. There is little appetite for that. Let's instead focus on cute rosey cheeked toddlers or extremely high functioning young DS adults...

On the other hand, I had an awful thought, remembering that the Nazis in world war two, used to kill off all of the weak and disabled people in hospitals. They saw them as worth less. Is this any different?

For fucks sake.

Really?

Abortion - safe, legal medical procedure.

Nazis - people with extreme, hateful, genocidal views

Yes.

They're totally the fucking same.

Try proof-reading before you post, yeah?

@Hoik

Yes really.

The Nazis killed of weak and disabled people.

As Heidi says, we are also saying that disabled people are worth less than other oeople.

That is her whole argument.

I see the correlation.

Heidi said

"What it says to me is that my life just isn’t as valuable as others, and I don’t think that’s right. I think it’s downright discrimination.”

I think that she has a point. She should definitely be able to advocate for her rights, at least.

I see the correlation

Between abortion and murder?

Between a perfectly legally medical procedure and an illegal act.

I mean I know the subject is emotive but nonsensical hyperbole adds nothing.

She should definitely be able to advocate for her rights, at least

She has rights because she is a living person. A foetus doesn’t have rights.

She is advocating limiting the rights of other women.

@mariequeenofscots

"Perfectly legal medical procedure".
It is legal right now. It is being campaigned against by many parties. So how long will it be legal for?

The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities.