To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

I genuinely cannot comprehend the mentality of people who believe that viable babies (without medical issues) should be allowed to be terminated until the moment of birth

No such thing as a viable baby. In utero, it is a foetus - scientifically and legally. The foetus only becomes a 'baby' if that is the value the woman carrying it chooses to assign to it.

the idea that some people think it ok to kill a baby who is full term as the mother’s rights are more important than the life of a baby is abhorrent

Nah love, I'll tell you what's abhorrent - your use of such emotive and sensationalist language to describe a termination. How DARE you reduce the experiences of women going through this to 'kill a baby'.

My dd is disabled and while we want the very best for her, her short life thus far as brought with it struggle and heartbreak.

If we had the option to screen during pregnancy I would want it, even if we decided not to take it.

@ViciousJackdaw I am a woman, and I don't mind that she said "kill a baby".

We arw all going to have our individual opinions

What sometime annoys me about the pro choice crowd, and I am pro choice myself, is that they say that every woman should have a choice, but if any woman is anti abortion - they do not let her have that choice.

We are all going to have our own opinions. We are not a hive mind

My views on termination don’t matter, apart from if I need to apply them to my own situation.
It should be 24 weeks for all or full term for all, not “full term for unborn babies with Downs Syndrome”.

angel84 it's a bit irrelevant if you mind or don't mind about language being used in this discussion.

As it's a discussion about the law and medical ethics, it's probably most useful if people use the correct terminology.

In utero, it is a foetus with no legal rights. The person in the scenario with legal rights is the woman who is pregnant.

Once born, it is a baby with all the legal rights and protections available to every other child.

So no-one, but no-one in this debate is actually referring to 'killing babies, so it's not particularly enlightening or useful to use that language.

but if any woman is anti abortion - they do not let her have that choice

But you have that choice, @angell84. Feel free not to have an abortion. No one will make you.

I genuinely cannot comprehend the mentality of people who believe that viable babies (without medical issues) should be allowed to be terminated until the moment of birth

But they can't.

but if any woman is anti abortion - they do not let her have that choice.

What?

@boudoirpink, I mean that they don't let her have the choice to SAY she is anti - abortion. If any one says that they do not believe in abortion, they usually receive alot of abuse.

Some of us are always going to think that abortion is okay
Some of us are always going to think that abortion is not okay.

It is the way it is always going to be.

viciousjackdaw I’m not convinced that my point actually applies to any real women since I don’t believe any doctor would carry out an abortion on someone who was 37-40 weeks unless there was a major medical issue for either the mother or child.
I was referring to the number of women on this thread who seem to be desperate for the Law to change to allow a women to abort for any reason whatsoever until birth.

What sometime annoys me about the pro choice crowd, and I am pro choice myself, is that they say that every woman should have a choice, but if any woman is anti abortion - they do not let her have that choice.

But you do have a choice if you are anti-abortion, you have the choice to NOT have an abortion.

Being pro-choice is about a woman's right to choose, this means she can choose to end her pregnancy or she can choose to end it. The point is that she chooses which one is right for her.

cologne correct - but over half of the women on this thread have advocated for women to have the right to a full term abortion for any reason.

@walkingdeadtrainee I think my post wasn't clear.

I meant that if women who are pro abortion are pro choice, why do I often see many of them insulting and abusing a woman if she says she is anti abortion.

Surely, it should be her choice, what she believes in, aswell?

angell84 I haven't seen that view expressed anywhere. Can you direct me to where people who have said that women who don't want an abortion should be forced to have one?

The view often expressed is that women should have the right to make their own choices about their own pregnancy.

Not that anyone with any view gets to control another person's actions.

Saucery the law isn't 24 weeks for all except 'full-term for foetuses with Downs syndrome".

This is another problem with these debates - people knowing next to nothing about the law or the situations of individual women and forming views based on erroneous 'facts'.

The Abortion Act 2067 allows for termination over 24 weeks under Ground E, ie that there is "substantial risk that if the child were born it would suffer from such physical or mental abnormalities as to be seriously handicapped."

That's all diagnosed or indicated conditions which carry a substantial risk of the child being born with problems which cause serious handicap.

As others have said, under three hundred post 24 weeks a year in the UK, and none or next to none in the third trimester.

I mean that they don't let her have the choice to SAY she is anti - abortion. If any one says that they do not believe in abortion, they usually receive alot of abuse

I dont think ive seen any abuse on here

Except from you calling women nazis

"I was referring to the number of women on this thread who seem to be desperate for the Law to change to allow a women to abort for any reason whatsoever until birth."

FFS. No-one has said this. People have said 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' in response to others posting alternative views.

angell84 it's anti-abortionists trying to impose their views on others that people have a problem with, not the woman making choices about her pregnancy.

I know the focus here is on Downs.
But their must be women who are in 2nd / 3rd tri who find out that they have illness, cancer, neurological conditions.
Who are then faced with horrific decisions of holding off treatment until baby is viable at great risk to themselves. Or terminate and start treatment asap.

Our laws are fine as they are.

@rufustheLanglovingreindeer.

I didn't call any women nazis. I was referring to the Government and the current laws in place as discrimination on disability, which is also what Heidi is talking about in her case against the government. After I wrote about the Nazis on here:

I spoke to my male flatmate a couple of minutes ago. I said' "what do you think about this case, a woman with downs syndrome is bringing a case of discrimination against the government. Currently, abortions are allowed up to 24 weeks, but abortions of fetuses with disabiliies are allowed up to full term." His reply was:

"That sounds like something the Nazis would do. That is Nazi shit"

That was his exact reply. He thought the same thing as me.

viciousjackdaw and with your disgustingly patronising use of ‘nah love’ you prove that you are only a feminist when it suits you.

Smiley if over half the women on this thread have supported 'as early as possible, as late as necessary' that's a good reason to consider the current law isn't meeting women's needs and needs to have time limits removed, I would say.

No-one is requiring you or anyone else to think this is okay for yourself, and no-one is suggesting that anyone would make a decision to terminate a third trimester pregnancy frivolously, but lots of people including myself do believe that women should have bodily autonomy.

What sometime annoys me about the pro choice crowd, and I am pro choice myself, is that they say that every woman should have a choice, but if any woman is anti abortion - they do not let her have that choice.

I am pro-choice and anti-abortion. Noone has ever tried to force me to have an abortion - which would be taking away my choice.

I have seen plenty of anti-abortion people try and impose their beliefs and opinions on women who want an abortion, not to abort thereby taking away their choice.

How the fuck would anyone who is pro-choice take away your choice if you are anti-abortion? Stop you from imposing your beliefs on other people, yes but noone is holding down pregnant women and forcing 5hem to abort much wanted children

I’m sure nobody thinks that the ‘world would be a better place without Heidi’ and such a suggestion is unnecessarily manipulative.

If Heidi had been aborted she wouldn’t be Heidi would she. And if I’d been aborted I wouldn’t be me. But that would have been my mother’s choice to make and I wouldn’t know about it or have lost out from it.

I would support having the same time limit no matter the reason for abortion and in that case it would need to be later than 24 weeks. And if those arguing that it’s disability discrimination to have different limits would agree with that as it would solve the discrimination argument, and if not is it because they’re actually anti-abortion generally and using this as an excuse to restrict women’s choices.

Is it bodily autonomy if you've already carried the foetus for 24 or 37 weeks though?

There's a very thin line ethically between an abortion for medical reasons at 37 weeks because you can't look after a disabled child, and giving birth to a baby with a previously unknown disability at 37 weeks and deciding you then don't want it...

Hmmmm. This is SUCH a difficult subject. I think as you get further along in pregnancy you can see further issues. For example it may take until 22-23 weeks to see certain heart defects, which are prevalent amongst people with downs.

I actually know several people with downs and it is a spectrum. Some live independently. Some don’t. Some babies barely survive the birth, others die within a year. Sometimes, it may be seen as kinder to ‘abort’ past 24 weeks than subject that baby to invasive tests, operations and tubes for months knowing they won’t ever leave hospital.

Regardless it is horrific for any parent to have to consider, and I am deeply saddened for those that do find themselves in a position where they have to make that decision.