To think that the world would not be a better place without Heidi *Content Warning - abortion/disability edited by MNHQ*

[bridgetreilly]

Heidi is 24 and has Downs syndrome. She is beautiful and brilliant and very articulate in explaining why the UK abortion law is discriminatory in allowing abortion up to full term where the child has Downs syndrome (and other non-fatal disabilities including cleft palate or club foot), when the standard limit is 24 weeks.

She's not the only one to think that. The United Nations’ Committee on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities’ concluding observations on the initial report of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland made a key recommendation that the UK change its abortion law on disability so that it does not single out babies with disabilities. However, the Government has decided to ignore this recommendation.

Heidi, along with the mother of a young boy with Downs syndrome, is planning to sue the government for discrimination. She is amazing and I hope she wins.

To the people saying there should be no restrictions at all- is it acceptable to have an abortion because of the sex of the baby?

I’m completely pro choice. That means I have to respect the rights of women to make choices including ones I might find personally reprehensible.

gender selective abortion is, I believe, not acceptable in the UK.

many totally healthy foetuses are also aborted because the woman does not want to continue with the pregnancy. Late terminations are extremely rare.

it is not discrimination nor a campaign against those with Down Syndrome who are here. It is the right to choose. And as shown on this thread and in many other places, not all with the syndrome turn out like Heidi.

I am prochoice. There's no 'but' after that. Don't want an abortion? don't have one. disapprove? Fine - line up to take on the unwanted children, however disabled. No-one ever does.

It's not discrimination when there's a rational reason for it. Read the thread.

I am prochoice. There's no 'but' after that. Don't want an abortion? don't have one. disapprove? Fine - line up to take on the unwanted children, however disabled. No-one ever does.

Well said.

My daughter has autism. No pre or post natal genetic testing for this. Perhaps there will be in the future and we can start erasing this condition from society too. Depressing

As for sex selective abortion, it doesn't matter to me, because I don't think a woman should have to give a reason anyway, so unless she tells people that's why she wants one, then who would even know. I don't believe in forced birth for any reason.

We don't. Stats from Norway last year show about a 44% rate of abortion for prenatally diagnosed DS

Isn’t Norway a bit of an outlier? They have quite a strict abortion policy iirc you can’t even abort for medical reasons after the second trimester

I believe it was close to 98% in Denmark.

My point is that a robust social welfare system is unlikely to change societal perceptions of the disabled

YANBU. The current law is discriminatory.

What I always find so depressing about the abortion debate is how many people think in earnest that their views should be ascribed to other women.

If you don't agree with abortion for yourself, that's perfectly acceptable. How is it acceptable to decide that other women are unreasonable for making another choice.

It is the height of arrogance to assume your opinion means more than bodily autonomy for any woman.

Perhaps there will be in the future and we can start erasing this condition from society too. Depressing

It won't erase it though will it? Because plenty of people will choose not to terminate for that reason. Just like many already who receive a diagnosis during pregnancy and make a choice about continuing regardless.

I agree with a previous poster that you are either pro choice or you aren't, no ifs and buts. The proposal put forward by Heidi is incredibly emotive but women who would choose an abortion if the child had ds should not be punished. There is a huge spectrum of disability with regards to downs and people similar to Heidi are few and far between. Why should any woman have to go through a pregnancy she does not want? It must be an incredibly hard decision to have a late term abortion and there are not many in the UK. The effects on a woman's life should be considered, having to give up work to be a full time carer, the mental and physical demands of that, knowing that there is not adequate provision for your child when you die and they will be vulnerable. Loss of income, social impact, effect on relationship and existing children are all valid considerations.

My daughter has autism. No pre or post natal genetic testing for this. Perhaps there will be in the future and we can start erasing this condition from society too. Depressing

It would never be erased because not everyone would choose to abort. I am absolutely pro giving women that choice. I have two autistic children. They can’t speak. They can’t understand words. They can’t tell me why they’re sad or where something hurts or even if something hurts. I have no idea whether they are happy, what they feel, whether something bad has happened when I’m not around. I spend my days fighting for them, trying to get them what they need, a battle which is absolutely destroying my already fragile physical and mental health.

I refuse to judge someone for not wanting their life or their child’s like to be like this. I love my children more than anything but I’m not going to pretend it’s not really fucking hard, or something I would choose.

I appreciate this is not the case for every child with autism, just as DS varies in severity and the extent of comorbid health issues. But it is the case for us.

To the people saying there should be no restrictions at all- is it acceptable to have an abortion because of the sex of the baby?

Should everything that we find incompatible with our own moral code be illegal? Infidelity, for example?

I would never have an abortion because of the sex of the baby. I imagine that the sexist cultural climate that leads to sex selective abortions is probably such that it isn't really the pregnant mother making the decision herself. That doesn't stop me believing that women should be allowed an abortion without having to give a reason.

Got writer's block OP?

I had no idea the abortion limit was extended to birth for Downs Syndrome, I find it extremely upsetting and unsettling. I completely support abortion and I have a friend who terminated at 26 weeks for medical reasons which was not an easy decision for her at all. Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

My daughter has autism. No pre or post natal genetic testing for this. Perhaps there will be in the future and we can start erasing this condition from society too. Depressing

I also have a child with autism. He is the light of my life and I wouldn't be without him. If I became pregnant and was able to find out that I was carrying another child with autism then I would think hard about aborting, because a second child with autism would have a heavy impact on my being able to care for my existing, already living child with autism.

Is forced birth the new term now? I hadn't heard it before.

I think that abortion is always going to be highly emotive, because even though I support women's right to choose, no one likes the idea of killing something, do they. It is such a hard topic.

And most of us, as women, know the absolute fear of an unwanted pregnancy scare.

We go through so much more than men.

We should be respected alot more for all that we go through.

Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

I don't imagine anyone sits next to their calendar ticking the days off thinking 'Oh, I'll just wait until the last minute to abort'.

I had no idea the abortion limit was extended to birth for Downs Syndrome, I find it extremely upsetting and unsettling. I completely support abortion and I have a friend who terminated at 26 weeks for medical reasons which was not an easy decision for her at all. Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

It's not extended especially for Down Syndrome, it's extended for medical reasons, could by many other reasons.

Unhelpful emotive story OP. Everyone has the right to choose. Late abortions are very rare and usually affect particular vulnerable groups. Chipping away at these hard-fought rights with emotive individual stories is worrying and unhelpful. Rather like Sally Phillips (loaded, in a couple, privileged) banging on about how great it is to have a child with DS. My family are affected by this and it shouldn't be for anyone else to force their beliefs on other women, sorry

I am always pro choice and don’t want any further restrictions to abortion.

This story does not change my mind in the slightest.

I’d love to know the stats here. I wouldn’t be surprised to learn abortions past 24 weeks are exceedingly rare, and beyond about 28/9 weeks, virtually non existent.

Heidi seems wonderful and I’m glad she’s here, but she is an outlier. Many people with Down’s have severe learning difficulties and require lifelong care. You simply cannot force someone into becoming a lifelong carer if they don’t feel they would cope with this. Of course some disabilities are discovered after birth and you then just have to cope (although many people don’t). But to make someone choose that life against their will is abhorrent.

I’m speaking from firsthand knowledge here. My youngest sibling has down’s and autism as well as a physical health problem, and will never live independently. My parents will always be responsible for her and their lives are far harder because of it. We all love her dearly, of course we do; however if I were to get pregnant again and discovered the foetus had down’s I would terminate almost unhesitatingly. I know the reality and I know I wouldn’t cope.

Waiting until term to terminate just doesn’t sit well with me at all.

It doesn’t sit well with anyone.

I think this is something that everyone would want to get over with as soon as possible.

Nobody is going to say, ^’well, let me just get to 8 months so I have all the stretch marks, weight gain, possibly preeclampsia, and maybe a baby shower and then I’ll do it. Hmmm, should I chose a surgical abortion with all the accompanying risks to my body, my health and indeed my life or should I choose to have an injection to kill the baby and then give birth naturally so I get to experience the indignities, the pain, the tearing, the risk of prolapse and all of the other fun stuff associated with labour but have a stillborn baby at the end?’