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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Are you still pro-Brexit?

451 replies

Fatasfooook · 26/02/2020 15:02

Brexit will have soon cost the UK more than all its payments to the EU over the past 47 years put together

www.businessinsider.com/brexit-will-cost-uk-more-than-total-payments-to-eu-2020-1?fbclid=IwAR3E3Xc8p0bgNF06hCJZzr61Ak-6VetNbFv5vrfsV041nPvDZeFSCnjHcdg&r=US&IR=T

OP posts:
nagynolonger · 27/02/2020 19:31

There have not been carrots or broccoli in my local supermarket for weeks. When I asked, I was told I needed to be in before midday if I wanted some. Is this the start of the Brexit Diet? I loathe leave voters.

Where the hell are you? cut of by floods? Carrots are grown here anyway. I have certainly not noticed a shortage of basic veg. No big bags of pasta though. Stock up everyone they won't sell us any after Brexit.

Finerumpus · 27/02/2020 22:22

Tinkly - trade unions won many workers’ rights. We really don’t need the EU to protect us. We can do they ourselves.

Parker231 · 27/02/2020 22:27

Workers rights will be destroyed by Boris as he will want to keep his friends from the business world happy.

The majority of the best of workers rights originated in the EU and some were then adopted by the UK.

D4rwin · 27/02/2020 22:29

Never was dear. Funny how people only admit to it on anon forums now isn't it? Much like anti vaxxers.

Finerumpus · 27/02/2020 22:32

Parker - they didn’t. The majority of workers’ rights were won by workers.

Parker231 · 27/02/2020 22:41

Many pieces of employment law stem from decisions made by the European Court of Justice and will no longer be relevant after Brexit because British courts will no longer have to follow ECJ decisions. The EU prevented any UK government overriding worker’s rights – Brexit means that protection will no longer be there.

Here are ten of the rights that could be under threat.

Limits on working hours

Introduced in the UK in 1998, the EU’s working time regulations mean employees cannot be forced to work more than an average of 48 hours a week. Workers can choose to opt out, and there are some exceptions - including emergency service workers, soliders, servants in private households and fishermen - but this EU law helps stop bosses forcing their employees to work unhealthy hours. It also prevents young people being exploited by stating workers under the age of 18 cannot work more than eight hours a day or 40 hours a week. The UK government resisted the controversial working time laws during EU negotiations and a future government could amend them.

Time off

The Working Time Directive also made days off a legal requirement. Companies have to give staff a minimum of 48 hours off work per fortnight and a rest time of at least 11 consecutive hours (12 hours for young people) every day. This is designed to stop workers being exploited and becoming unwell because of being overworked. The rules also include protections for night workers, ensuring they cannot work an average of more than eight hours a day and must be offered free health checks.

Annual leave

EU rules also secure British workers’ legal right to paid annual leave. According to the Trades Union Congress (TUC), the introduction of these laws gave six million Britons better rights to paid leave, including two million workers who had previously not been entitled to any paid leave at all. EU directives say workers must be given at least four weeks (20 days) of paid leave per year. This is less than the UK’s legal requirement of 28 days of annual leave, but the EU rules acted, until now, as a safeguard against any future government scrapping or reducing annual leave requirements.

Equal pay

Equal pay between men and women has been enshrined in EU law since 1957. It was also part of UK law before Britain joined the EU but in a more minimal way. The British government had refused to incorporate into law the idea that pay should be based on value, meaning a woman doing a more valuable or senior job could legally be paid only the same as a more junior male colleague. The UK government amended this only after enforcement action by the EU Commission.

Maternity rights

EU law guarantees women a minimum of 14 weeks maternity leave. The 1992 EU Pregnant Workers Directive also gave women the right to take time off work for medical appointments relating to their pregnancy. It placed a duty on employers to look after pregnant women, including putting them on paid leave if the nature of their work was unsuitable during pregnancy – for example, if it was overly physical and potentially dangerous.

The European Court of Justice (ECJ) has made clear any discrimination towards a woman because of her pregnancy or maternity leave is sexism and should be treated at such. The ECJ also ruled that employers must give women on maternity leave the same contractual rights as they do to other employees, for example by continuing to pay in to pension schemes.

Parental leave

EU law says parents must be allowed to take 18 weeks of unpaid leave from work to look after a child. It also says workers must be allowed additional time off for other family reasons, such as an ill child.

Anti-discrimination laws

UK laws banning discrimination on the grounds of age, religion or sexual orientation come directly from the EU’s Equal Treatment Directive. EU laws have also made it easier for people claiming discrimination to get justice, by placing the burden of proof in discrimination cases on the alleged perpetrator rather than the alleged victim.

Compensation for discrimination victims

Under EU law, there is no cap on the amount an employer found guilty of discrimination can be ordered to be pay in compensation. This could change after Brexit. The last government commissioned a report on employment law, by venture capitalist Adrian Beecham, that recommended introducing a cap on compensation payments for discrimination. Until now, EU rules have prevented UK government ministers from doing so. Critics say the current law can be crippling for employers but others say it is a reasonable reflection of the huge consequences discrimination can have.

Agency worker protections

EU rules adopted in 2008 say temporary workers must be treated equally to directly-employed staff, including being given access to the same “amenities or collective facilities”. They also say EU member states should do more to improve agency workers’ access to training and childcare facilities. These regulations are not popular with employers and were resisted by the UK government during EU negotiations. They could be some of the first EU rules to be scrapped post-Brexit.

Health and safety

The EU’s Health and Safety Framework Directive forces employers to assess and act to reduce workplace risks. Other rules cover issues such as disabilities, noise and specific regulations for staff working with chemicals, asbestos or other potential hazards. The TUC says 41 of the 65 new health and safety regulations introduced in the UK between 1997 and 2009 came from EU laws.

Parker231 · 27/02/2020 22:44

And also The Transfer of Undertakings (Protection of Employment) Regulations 2006 (TUPE).

TUPE represents the UK implementation of the Acquired Rights Directive 2001/23 EC.

Finerumpus · 27/02/2020 22:46

Thanks Parker. If you also look into trade union history you will see that we empowered ourselves by uniting to fight for our interests. If you are worried about Boris Johnson’s intentions, you should work to fight for our rights. We have unlocked the potential of democracy again and have the opportunity to maximise on this at the moment.

Finerumpus · 27/02/2020 22:48

BTW have you watched Peterloo? Interesting comparisons.

KenDodd · 27/02/2020 22:50

Johnson will cave over trade negotiations, the same way he caved over NI

I don't believe he will. I think he absolutely is willing to throw the economy off a cliff, fuck people's jobs and he couldn't care less about the peace in NI either.

Parker231 · 27/02/2020 22:50

Unfortunately Thatcher weakened the trade unions powers in the 80’s and they have never recovered.

Alsohuman · 28/02/2020 09:45

She certainly did and I have every expectation that this government will attack them again.

SchrodingersBox · 28/02/2020 13:53

@Parker231 many of these rights existed in the UK long before the EU came into being and the British government has chosen to exceed them. If you think the government removes these rights then you have the ability to vote them out which you did not with the ECJ or Commission.

FieldOfFlameAndHeather · 28/02/2020 13:56

I don't believe he will. I think he absolutely is willing to throw the economy off a cliff, fuck people's jobs and he couldn't care less about the peace in NI either.

For what? What would there be to gain in pushing for any of that?

Parker231 · 28/02/2020 14:00

@SchrodingersBox - much of the UK employment legislation came about in order to comply with EU Directives. I think post Brexit the UK government will weakened some of them. Unfortunately I’m not entitled to vote in the UK so have to rely on others voting out the Tories.

Hingeandbracket · 28/02/2020 14:00

I didn't see any mention of the minimum wage in connection with the EU?

MaryMcCarthy · 28/02/2020 14:25

I've been suffering from reduced investment, falling collaboration opportunities and greater material costs in my industry (healthcare research) and Brexit hasn’t even happened yet. I have absolutely no doubt that the UK's importance and influence in the world is diminishing because of Brexit and I'm certain that friends and colleagues will lose their jobs.

Every day I hear news that suggests things are worse, and the government more ideologically zealous and witless than some of the worst pronouncements of ‘Project Fear’ ever suggested.

Absolutely baffled as to how anyone can support it at this stage, having seen virtually all of the government's assurances gone up in smoke. Why is there no backlash from the Leave voters? Are they happy with literally anything that involves leaving, at any cost?

Alsohuman · 28/02/2020 15:09

Why is there no backlash from the Leave voters?

Because it’s become a cult and they’re all completely brainwashed. Anything that isn’t sunny uplands makes them put their fingers in their ears and sing loudly.

ssd · 28/02/2020 19:39

There's no backlash because their lives aren't affected yet. Once that happens the papers will be full of sad face news stories, families complaining 'Boris' isn't helping them. Like he ever would.

I heard on the news women from the North of England have reduced life expectancy by 5 years. Since austerity was brought in. Yet so many of them still voted tory in their droves?!?

I'll never get it.

KenDodd · 28/02/2020 20:14

Why is there no backlash from the Leave voters

I have struggled to understand this as well. The Brexit we're getting is a million miles from the one promised, direct promises (lies) have been broken and replaced with things we we're told would never happen. I would be furious if I'd voted Leave. I'd feel like my vote had been stolen by liars and cheats. Leave voters don't though, they're still all for it even though they themselves have moved from saying "it's all going to be great" to saying "we survived the war". I don't understand.

Parker231 · 28/02/2020 22:12

I think reality will only set in once we have left with a no deal and problems start happening to supply chains and troubles start in NI.

GoatyGoatyMingeMinge · 28/02/2020 22:16

My guess is that in aggregate they're not very bright.

user1479305498 · 29/02/2020 00:33

The only people I’ve met who were ever pro it either are retired or do a bit of part time or have totally UK centric businesses, have zero understanding of how commerce works these days, are xenophobic idiots or rich enough to be able to buy their way out of any forthcoming issues or a combination of various of these. On a purely economic spreadsheet analysis, leaving is going to cost the equivalent of 47 years of contributions, totally nuts but then it appeals to the ‘Britain is amazing’ Brigade, it simply isn’t. My father in law who is80 voted for it, hisoartnet was then cared for with terminal cancer by 4 fantastic Latvian girls till she died, he now says, in principle he’s never really gone a bundle on the EU but his opinion should have been totally irrelevant and it’s clear it was designed to help the rich for tax purposes whilst convincing those struggling it was for their benefit, he totally regrets his vote

user1479305498 · 29/02/2020 00:46

Some of the few bits of investment announced are things that would have gone ahead Brexit or not— whereas early in 2021 you are going to see one big exodus by a ton of very good quality business , if you have spent your life with a nice cushy part time job at A council or a Uni or something else incredibly UK centric, then you really have totally lost track of how so many businesses involving any element of manufacturing work and just in time methods, , be it food, pharma, beauty, media, household goods. I have friends in HR being told to hush hush on stuff and relocations. It’s going to hit home but not till next year. A lot of you are sleepwalking into a totally rubbish scenario

NiteFlights · 29/02/2020 07:53

My guess is that in aggregate they're not very bright.

Yes, I hesitate to say this but you can see the Dunning Kruger effect playing out on every thread (here and elsewhere) and letters page.