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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Aibu - requiring consent of deadbeat exh to travel

110 replies

changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 08:05

I've just returned from a holiday in the Netherlands with Dd who is 4. Her father and I split when I was pregnant, divorced shortly after her birth, his contact is sporadic at best as he us an alcoholic. He has never paid any child maintenance. On both entering and leaving I was asked did i permission from him to travel with her. I have never been asked this entering Spain, Italy, Greece. Several days ago and I am still so upset/ angry about it. I understand they are trying to prevent child abduction and I didn't explain my situation to the immigration officer. I am going to ask my exh for a letter of consent to travel with her as I can imagine it's only going to get worse leaving the EU, but it does seem to me endemic sexism. I cannot enforce any reciprocal child maintenance claim/ order because I am resident inn the Uk/ British and he is Dutch, but the Dutch authorities exoect me to get his consent to travel with the child I provide everything for?
I'm planning to take her back to the Netherlands, with a letter of consent. If I make this point at immigration next time am I likely to get in trouble. Am I being unreasonable to feel so affronted by this? I'

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changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 09:13

Thank you all for your comments (and sympathy).
It is almost impossible to get parental responsibility removed, except in the case of violence/ sexual assault by the parent to the child.
I can not make a child maintenance claim (CMA) against someone resident in the Netherlands.
I could go to court and get a court order for maintenance, But there seems little point as it would be at the rate for someone on benefits...so in the UK or would be £7 a week. He has taken UK legal advice when child was a newborn and has stated he proposes to pay me 12% of his income as maintenance when he gets a job...that was 4 years ago and I have not received a penny!
I've never stopped contact, which has always been very sporadic...

OP posts:
woodencoffeetable · 23/02/2020 09:15

yabu
when travelling you always need to inform yourself of documentation requirements etc.

it's the law in many countries (including the uk!) that you need permission from the other parent, difference is that some countries actually check.
it's good practice to always keep a copy of dc birth certificate in their passports.

DonkeyKong2019 · 23/02/2020 09:16

@Mintjulia that's fraud. Some countries do and will check (some go as far as wanting it notorised). If your luck runs out you are in hot water.

tegucigalpa13 · 23/02/2020 09:21

The problem is that the law is ludicrous.

  1. The UK government guidance states that a letter from the other parent is usually sufficient to show permission has been given. So easy to forge if you have dubious intentions.
  1. Schengen means that there is no border control when travelling between most EU countries. So a child leaving the Netherlands can travel by car or plane to Belgium and thence to UK. We have been travelling back and forth from Belgium by Eurostar for years and have never once been asked to show permission to travel from the other parent - despite the fact that DC surname is different to mother’s.
  1. Our DC have been travelling alone from the age of 12 and have never been challenged when leaving the country (UK, Belgium, France or Germany) although 13 year old DS was once asked by immigration at Heathrow why he was travelling alone and who was meeting him. When he said he was going back to school and was being collected by taxi they admitted him without further checks.

There is no point having checks if they are not worth the paper they are written on.

changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 09:22

I'm wondering about the best way forward with this as it seems pointless to incur court costs. I will now always carry her birth certificate. Thankfully we do have the same name. There is no court order for residency, I'm wondering if it would be sensible to apply for one!

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Murraygoldberg · 23/02/2020 09:25

I travel alot and never been asked, ds has my name so wonder if that helps. Ds travelled last summer with my dp so I wrote a letter, copied my passport and later flight, they never got asked. Ds's dad has now died, so assume they will take my word on this, ds is getting older so that must help.

stuffedpeppers · 23/02/2020 09:30

it has got a lot worse and definitely if mum and different surnames you get targetted alot.

My eldest did point out to the immigration official that they should ask his Dad aswell - who never gets asked - "you only ask my Mum who I live with and never my Dad who I see once in a blue moon"!!

We have gone from passports, to birth certificates, to marriage cert, divorce certificate, letter, Exs passport - I have been lectured told I am a bad mother etc etc etc.

Now I travel with nothing bar our passports.

woodencoffeetable · 23/02/2020 09:35

I have read somewhere that more women remove children from their father's than the other way round.

if that is true, then it makes sense for immigration officers to ask women more.
and then again, mostly women are resident parents after a relationship breaks down and that would mean more women travelling alone with their children.

recordbox · 23/02/2020 09:35

Am I being unreasonable to feel so affronted by this?

Bloody hell, yes, yes you are.

They asked, they have to ask. That's all.

You spoke a lot about your own personal feelings towards your ex in the OP, it's hard but you need to separate those feelings from the law. There is no reason to feel 'affronted'

changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 09:39

This has been a depressing and worrying read, I think i need to get a residence order, it's not seemed necessary before but exh is unreliable, which is only going to get worse, not better.
@TurnTurnTurn - how have you helped your children navigate the emotional effects if their fathers alcoholism, do they know? My ex hid his alcoholism from me. I realised only when he had a seizure and the hospital notes said suspected alcoholism - the doctors could see it but I didn't know! It's got worse since we divorced despite him being told drinking again may kill him he's relapsed since so in worried it will actually kill him. I also worry about the emotional impact on my child of realising as she is older that her father didn't actually care enough about her to provide for her and has always prioritised himself (which is why I am glad we are divorced, he was a financial abuser and I am so glad to be free of the emotional, financial abuse - which escalated to physical abuse during my pregnancy

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megletthesecond · 23/02/2020 10:15

It's awful tbh.
We've missed out on travel because I'm too anxious and it wouldn't be safe to find XP and ask him.
I'm hoping we can go away when the dc's are teens and therefore considered less of an abduction risk.

Frazzled2207 · 23/02/2020 11:24

One of my friends frequently travels abroad with her children but without her partner (partner and children have same surname). Always carries a letter. Is annoying but the law. As PP said don't take it personally.

TurnTurnTurn · 23/02/2020 11:35

OP - there are always a lot of difficult questions and situations when you have an alcoholic in the family and children to consider, even years after you split. 10-15 years ago I got great advice and support on the Relationships board here and would recommend you post there for input on the wider issues of alcoholism and family rather than AIBU.

Logistically, when you have a child, it can seem the connection is ever-present. At the same time, you will have to emotionally distance yourself from your ex and his problems if you're going to stay sane and live your own life. Yes, his drinking may kill him and there's absolutely nothing you, or your children, can do about that. It's pitiable but beyond your control.

With DC I've always gone for age appropriate truth and never hidden the basic facts, which are corroborated and understood by wider family on both sides luckily. I've made it very clear that none of what happened was their fault and that they have no responsibility for the way their father behaves.

I tell DC that they probably inherited all the good stuff from his side and none of the bad (but I'll always be on tenterhooks with DC around alcohol tbh).

My DC were so young when we split that there is no memory of him ever being here with us. So for us, it's more explaining why he is the way he is now, why he never visits, why he never remembers birthdays or Christmas, why when we do see him (during visits to wider family) he smells funny, talks funny, hides bottles around the house, and so on.

Occasionally when smaller, we've had tears and frustration that DC's dad isn't like X's or Y's dad who is always reads bedtime stories, takes them to the park, and bakes them birthday cake. After cuddles, we've usually gone through all the other families at school and identified a whole range of people with good dads, bad dads, no dads, and everything in between.

At one school there was a group for children from divorced and blended families. DC was invited to join and the staff noted a mature attitude and sensible advice to another child with an alcoholic parent.

Unlike you, I did always know about my ex's drinking but we were relatively young when we married and I didn't realise it was alcoholism, or what that really meant, until I was expecting DC. It was only when we got to our late 20s and everyone else slowed down with drinking and partying that I realised that exH couldn't or wouldn't stop.

It was then a couple more years before I realised that for the purposes of protecting and raising DC, the distinction didn't really matter. He was unsafe to take care of them (brought home to me starkly when a babysitter declined to leave DC in the house after her shift until I returned late at night, as he was drunk and incapable), made himself unable to work to support them, and was spending money from my account at a rate that would have bankrupted me if I allowed it to continue.

I've been through the vomiting blood, liver damage, seizures, brain scans and the pity of countless medical staff during our marriage. He was diagnosed as an alcoholic in three separate countries so no ambiguity. I've shouted, wept, pleaded, bargained with him. Nothing I said or did ever made the slightest bit of difference to anything. Every single time exH celebrated each small recovery with more drink. I'm guessing he still does but no longer ask.

I'm still sad about such a wasted life and wasted potential but it's largely depersonalised now.

I suspect that one day I will get a call from his family to let me know he is in hospital and probably dying, and I will have to make the hard decision about whether or not to get DC on a plane to see him one more time. If they're old enough, it may be their decision by then.

Piffyonarockbun · 23/02/2020 11:45

My DH took our DD to amsterdam last spring half term as i was on a course. He was questioned for over 20 mins about where i was. He had to show them whatsapp and facebook messages to prove i was fully aware that they were leaving the country. Facebook msg and whatsapp must be easy to fake if you were really determined though. Our 5 year old was also questioned about where mummy was and why i wasnt with them. We all went to amsterdam together in december and again my daughter was asked where she was going, for how long and who with. Weve just returned from a trip to a different country and other than checking she answered to her name they didnt bother. Some countries must be more stringent than others. I dont think sexism comes into it though. My husband was thoroughly interrogated when he was alone. Luckily theres no reason for me not to know where he was going but it could have been stressful for him if there was.

GaraMedouar · 23/02/2020 11:58

I’ve never been asked with DD , now 8, but then she has my surname , and also I’ve only gone to very tourist places, package holidays - so like a week in the Canaries type thing. I do take a copy of her birth certificate just in case, but never been asked.

Jokie · 23/02/2020 12:07

Extremely common in the Netherlands. I often get stopped at Schiphol and Calais so will carry a letter of "permission". You can download versions on the internet and don't need a solicitors letter/legal authentication

chomalungma · 23/02/2020 12:19

DS has a double barrelled surname. So he has my surname and ex's.

Never been asked - we've only travelled to Europe though. I don't know if that's because we share the same surname - which is stupid if you are trying to prevent child abduction in families because there is a good chance you'll share the same surname.

And having a letter - well people have said that they don't check them so it looks like a box ticking exercise.

SuperMeerkat · 23/02/2020 12:23

I used to write a fake letter and was never even asked. We went to France, Spain, Turkey and Tunisia. I doubt it’s legal but tbh I didn’t care. He didn’t go abroad til he was 8 so perfectly able to speak for himself anyway.

changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 12:28

Thanks all for your comments, especially @TurnTurnTurn about your family situation. I'm at that stage noticing her dad is not like other was a and the tears about it. Some support at school would be really helpful as it's a lot of dad's doing pick ups which is sad for her

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Pringlesonthetable · 23/02/2020 12:32

My sons ex just took the children abroad, the first he knew about it was when he rang her to ask where they were as they hadn't shown up as agreed for contact. They have his surname, he has PR, is on BC. As with all other agreements/ orders she does what she wants with impunity, as she is primary caregiver.

Justanouk · 23/02/2020 12:41

Just to add to the comments above, the Netherlands is really strict because many high-profile cases of international parental abduction have caused huge headaches for the government and immeasurable pain for children and parents.

This is also the reason why, if a couple are not married, the mother Dutch and the father non-Dutch, the father does not automatically have parental ‘rights’.

LolaSkoda · 23/02/2020 12:50

I didn’t even consider this when I went abroad with the children. Should I be travelling with a copy of my husbands death certificate in future?

I understand the reasoning behind the questioning, but my children would be really upset if strangers at the airport started interrogating them about their Father.

pointythings · 23/02/2020 12:57

It's the law, pain though it may be. I got away with it 2 years ago after my husband and I separated - we were never asked, though I did always carry my marriage certificate around with me plus the DDs' birth certificates to show why we had different names.

I am now a widow and DD1 is 19, but we are going on 2 foreign holidays this year, including one to Holland, and I will be bringing all of the above plus my husband's death certificate.

cologne4711 · 23/02/2020 12:59

I was asked when dd was 17

What? At 17? I travelled alone on a plane when I was 17! I know things have changed since then but that is infantalising teens to a new degree!

changedtempforprivacy · 23/02/2020 13:09

@LolaSkoda - yes, I think definitely bring a copy of the death certificate, especially if going to Netherlands. I was really surprised at how strict they were!

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