Having children to take care of you in old age

[ThatsNotMyCherry]

I want to know how to articulate why this is is wrong.

In recent years as her kids have flown the nest my mum has started going on about this a lot. She’s always saying how parents do so much for their children when they’re young so it’s their children’s duty to do the same when they’re old. I think she believes that in every relationship you should get back as much as you put in. She’s been a housewife her whole life and in recent years does a fair bit of care for her own mother. She tells me about people she knows who are unwell but their kids are busy working and raising their own families. Obviously neglecting your parents when they’re old isn’t right but people have their own lives and are entitled to live them. I think part of the problem may be that she’s never had a life outside of caring. When I tell her I don’t expect this from my children and want them to have their own happy, fulfilled lives she says I will only understand when they grow up, leave and then need them.

All the people mentioning Dignitas; I don't think you're allowed to go there if you have dementia are you? I thought it was only for very specific conditions.

That's probably exactly what's going to need to happen, though, Porcupine, because we'll have an ageing population with increasing levels of dementia and we won't have the social care available for them, unless we're able to automate that care. Again, it's a harsh truth, but that's mostly the way of things.

I don't have a solution to the social care crisis but I'm reasonably confident that it isn't murder.

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents ?

*One thing that really, really annoys me on these kind of threads is all the posters who say they will be off to dignitas before developing advanced dementia.

Such a naive view.

One of the main problems with dementia is that it means that people are not aware that there is a problem. If people aren't capable of admitting that they need help in cleaning their house, at what point do you think a person would say, right that's it, my memory's not what it used to be, I'm packing my bags*

So very true which is why I have an advance directive which states that when (based on family history, I don’t believe it’s if) I have a diagnosis of dementia, no treatment is to be given for any other condition. Chest infection or UTI? No antibiotics. Cancer or heart attack? Palliative care only. I appreciate this won’t be easy for the kids and they may have to fight for it to be enforced but between that and ensuring there’s plenty of money for care home fees, it’s the best I can do.

My mum stopped work for a time to look after her ill mother and always said she would not have got married while she was alive and needed her. My grandma died in her 40s so mum did meet my dad in her 20s and marry him. I never doubted her though. Unsurprisingly she expected me to take care of her and I did so to some extent after my dad died, initially with shopping and finances and later with very regular visits, daily calls and eventually after she had a stroke and a number of falls we pooled resources and bought a house so I could look after her. She was late 70s by then. Unfortunately she developed progressive vascular dementia and needed round the clock care and spent the last 2 years of her life in a nursing home. For the most part she hated it although she did settle and didn’t remember living with us after a while. I could not give up work and had a young child, I could not have done anymore and have no regrets either about caring for her or letting her go into a home, there really was no other option. I would never have moved away from her once my dad was gone - I was 24 when he dies and she was a widow for 18 years.

Having said all that, I do not expect my son to do the same for me. If he wanted to move away, I would support his decision. If he did not want to live with me, thats fine. No expectations there. I do hope he will visit (or skype) often and offer moral support when he can when I am old and doddery. Unlike my mum, I would not refuse carers to spare him that. He is 13 at the moment and has a lot of empathy, not least because of his Grandma. He was amazing with her and they were very close. I wouldn’t change any of that.

One of the things that annoys me on these threads is that caring for elderly parents is overwhelmingly yet more unpaid, unacknowledged female labour presented as 'the natural way of things'.

Alsohuman I think your directive is over simplified. You could live a long miserable time with a UTI for instance. Would it even ever kill you? Having a DNR in place is another matter and completely understandable.

You can also have a dementia diagnosis and still have capacity to some extent. There is a massive difference between the early stages for most people and late stage. What if you had capacity to decide and changed your mind?

This is a very old view and a thirs world view too.
My mum always said she would rather fo in a home than have us care for her, but as she got I'll, that's all we wanted to do, we loved her so much and didn't want anyone else caring for her, she was only 65 when she passed.
I feel the same with my boys, no way do I expect them to care for me when I am frail, I wouldn't want to put any pressure on them or their families.
We chose to have our children, hopefully we didn't have them as future carers.

I do wonder who advocates for those with no kids or kids who don’t get involved. I had so much input with healthcare professionals / social services / care home etc regarding my mum. What if she had noone?

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents ?

How does that work when you were forced to move to another country for work 25 years before (and keep in mind that many to most countries will not allow you to bring your aged relatives over to live with you as they will become a burden on the state) in order to make a living, you are still having to work FT to pay for the roof over your head, your kids don't want to move back to the UK and you cannot force them. Or your spouse. People can't just uproot their lives, leave their own families to become unpaid carers.

I don't have a solution to the social care crisis but I'm reasonably confident that it isn't murder.

Is it, though, if it's an advanced directive? Or perhaps Alsohuman has it best: an advanced directive that specifies nothing but palliative treatment for any other health condition in the event of dementia?

Because like it or not it is become a SERIOUS problem caring for such individuals and will become much more acute in the near future.

What if you had capacity to decide and changed your mind?

After seeing my mum and my gran, if I had capacity, I definitely wouldn’t change my mind! The whole point of an advance directive is that it kicks in when capacity has gone. A UTI would eventually cause kidney failure. And of course I’d have a DNAR!

I think your mum is getting worried about what will happen to her if she becomes weak and ill and needs reassuring that she will be cared for. IMO, you need to let her know that you'll be there for her to a point but that carers will have to be involved, as well. She may need to do some financial planning to make sure she has enough money at the time. If she starts to object or give her POV on what should be done, you'll have to let her know (gently) that you're going to do things according to what you believe and what works for your life as well as hers. She can have her opinion, but it's not going to influence the shape of your life or how you handle things. Of course, you care about her, etc., but you're not obligated to do things her way.

I have a friend who lives with her widowed mother who had promised her that she will not let her go into a home, she has no life and is in the process of giving up her job now her mum needs someone with her full time
the generation who never left home because housing was too expensive and their parents made it easy for them to stay at home...this is their fate

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents?

Some parents aren't worthy of the name, my so called father can rot in hell.

Its unrealistic to expect say a male child to clean his mothers bottom or a daughter to do the same for her father, the parent could be extremely embarrassed if nothing else.. what a loss of pride, i would mortified if my dc had to clean me up.

I pay an awful lot of tax, so yes i do expect social care in my dotage as my taxes are paying for other peoples care now, its called being a developed and civilised society... just as i expect a pension and the NHS etc though the help we have come to expect is rapidly diminishing, so perhaps i'm being naive.

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents?

Yes, isn't that the point of paying tax? So you have help to rely on in your old age?

Why should children (who never asked to be born and who may not have had ideal upbringings) be relied upon to care for their parents? That aside, they may not be able to!

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents

What rubbish. Yes, I do expect social care to help considering that my parents paid into the system their whole lives and have never once claimed benefits- isn't that the entire point of paying tax/nat ins? When my dad got ill i had two young kids under 5 and a job. How do you suggest I coped with both two young kids and a parent who needed round the clock attention- 24/7? perhaps I should have just not slept ever? or given up my job to exist on a carers allowance? but then how would I have paid for the things my children needed? Its all very well telling people what to do but half the time its completely unrealistic to expect people to give up their jobs when they have other financial responsibilities like a mortgage and children to look after. I'm also an only child so there was no chance I could even share this burden with anyone else.

I’ve worked in the age sector for years and pretty much everyone I’ve talked to is adamant that they don’t want or expect their children to look after them

What they usually mean by that is they don’t want their children to provide personal care - dressing, washing, taking to the loo. They don’t tend to mean no help with anything at all and in reality as people get old it’s the everyday practical things that they need help with - a lift to the hospital, popping out to get a prescription, a phone call every day to make sure mum & dad is ok, dealing with the electricity bill when everything has gone on line. I think most of us would regard that as helping rather than care

The reality is that over 90% of all unpaid care of older people is provided by family, mostly adult kids

So we have a situation where people don’t want their kids to look after them but the reality is they almost always do

If people really don’t want their kids looking after them in old age, need to put alternative plans in place

Again, still wondering how these children, who are usually middle aged and sometimes in their 60s and 70s themselves, are supposed to provide physical care when they're also supposed to be working until they are 67 and many will probably have to part-time even longer as cost of living is so high. How about those who have had to move to cities like London or Edinburgh and live in tiny flats and even if the parents' home is sold, it's still nowhere near enough to afford large enough accommodation.

So many people are still living back in 1970.

I think children should be expected to help care for their parents as they get older . If we don’t , who will ? Do children who won’t look after their elderly want the tax payers to fund social care for their parents ?

That would go back to children not asking to be born. Said elderly tend to also be taxpayers and/or have paid their taxes for decades. Plus, why isn’t it expected that elderly parents would have considered and planned for such things in advance? There is no guarantee that their children will be able to take care of them or even survive past them. It’s a horrible thought that your children might not outlive you but it does happen.

In our family my children already look after their dad as he lives (and is from) a country with no social care for the elderly. It costs them £35 pm to keep him in good situation.

My own (English) parents - mum and step dad - own dad dead) .. I would do whatever I could to make their lives comfortable. Because I love them.

I would do whatever I could to make their lives comfortable
really, would you sacrifice your own well-being... ruin your own health such that you die before them?

I think people to need to separate the concept of physically caring and looking after.

No it isn't right to expect someone that doesn't want/ isn't able to lift/toilet/ dress/ feed etc someone.

Yes It is not an unreasonable expectation that the younger generation will help arrange care/ advocate for/ make sure they aren't scammed when arranging building work etc

I do wonder how all these 'I don't want my child to feel they have to look after me' will feel when they are alone day after day surrounded by technology they don't understand and a world that is becoming confusing for them and no one to help them navigate it.

Anyone who thinks being a taxpayer all their life is going to mean they are provided with care is deluded. If you’ve got more than £23.5k in the bank, you’re on your own, chum. If you go into residential care and you own a house, you pay.

What @Kit19 says is spot on. There’s a period when personal care isn’t needed but support with every day living is. It’s draining but you either do it or leave them to sink or swim because there’s some help you just can’t buy. You’d be mad to let a stranger deal with their financial affairs and you can’t pay for someone to take them to appointments and stay with them.

And it’s insidious. It starts with taking them shopping, then doing it for them, then sorting out their utilities and filling in their tax return, then opening all the mail because they can’t face it and so it goes on.

You can pay for cleaning and gardening but there are some things only families can do and that includes advocating for them. Fuck knows what happens to the poor buggers who don’t have that.

Going back to an early point about recognising about what you wish to happen to you .
www.bbc.com/news/amp/stories-47047579
£35 per month for a Months care . Wow.
My mum is not eligible for social care . She pays £25 for an hours care call x 3 per day
As she is self funding . I cannot physically be there 3 x a day with two primary aged children . Which is actually woefully inadequate Interestingly @Patchwork-patty

I think I am actually probably eligible for carers allowance of £60 per week but I try and squeeze in some zero hours paid work .

I think the line between social care and essential clinical care has become blurred. It is the latter that human beings should absolutely have the right to expect to be funded. Regrettably the goal posts have been changed.

Diseases such as alzheimers require equal standards of clinical care as diseases such as cancer. They aren't a choice and require equal funding.