To wonder if a lot of people are still against drag ?

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Shows like Drag Race have become incredibly popular. I have tickets to see the live show in May, and I think drag culture is amazing. It shows how far we have come that such a show is so popular on TV, and I think it should be celebrated.
I asked some friends if they wanted to come to the show with me and they very firmly and quickly told me that they were not fans of that sort of stuff.
When I was a teenager, I used to think Drag Queens were just some middle-aged men on Canal street with a blonde wig and high heels, and I was quite intimidated and scared of them in a way. I wonder if some people still feel that way, and don't judge them for it, just curious.

I actually think slavery of poc was worse than the oppression of women in the west such as uk, yes

Well I can respect that, but I think people often have a knee jerk reaction to this and assume that it was worse for people of colour because misogyny isn’t taken seriously.

Women were property, just like slaves.
Men could legally rape and beat their wives, just like they could with slaves.
Women didn’t have access to contraception so could be forced into pregnancy.
Women were not allowed to own property, bank accounts, money, patents, to vote, to hold positions of power etc, just like slaves.
White men played women on stage, just like the minstrels played black people.

Why is that not taken seriously? It’s not a competition as to which was worse anyway, it’s that BOTH were fucking horrific.

steppemum - I agree on Drag Race actually, it's not any good and not 'real' drag but then nothing on telly is most oft he time

I haven't watched but I'm a big fan of Todrick Hall

I've seen some of the UK Drag Race peeps in their 'natural' settings and they're way funnier...

but as soon as it's a man being feminine its disgusting and sexist and a parody of being a woman, I just don't get the thinking behind it.

but dragis NOT just abotu a man dressing as a women, which is prettacceptable, it is about a man portraying women as a chariacature.
I think the person who said that it is similar to blacking up to mock blakc people has it pretty spot on actually

Drag is about pushing the gender boundaries and norms, always has been. Drag Queens and Kings. But now those 'norms' are changing and I think it makes a lot of straight people very uncomfortable.

For some reason, humans just like to mock those beneath them - the history of entertainment and comedy show that.

I hope the Woke will turn on drag the way we have on blackface one day - but it's so tied up in everyone involved having fun at the expense of women that I doubt much will change.

Just look at some of the depressing answers here from actual women who can't see any problem.

Exactly what fuckitywhy said above.

people often have a knee jerk reaction to this and assume that it was worse for people of colour because misogyny isn’t taken seriously

I think part of the problem is that people see privilege as a hierarchy and often can't get their heads around the intersectionality of oppression.

It's not a hierarchy and there's no need to declare who's most oppressed. That's why intersectional feminism came about (before it was co-opted by woke white men, obviously).

Black slavery practices started and ended more recently and was more overt than women's oppression under the patriarchy. So it's easier to put a name to and easier to recognise. Hardly anyone is going to deny that racism exists (although I appreciate some people minimise it, if some of the threads on MN are anything to go by).

But lots of people don't even believe in gender oppression and feel we're in a post-sexism world now that women have the vote and are sexually liberated. So it's natural that they would see it as horrific to suggest that women's oppression is anything near as difficult for women as racism is for BAME people living in predominantly white areas.

Drag in LGBTQ+ venues is completely different to the commercialised dross on telly that's deemed worthy of straight audiences, tho I suppose more power to the artists if they can make some decent $$$ out of it.

I hope the Woke will turn on drag the way we have on blackface one day

They won't because drag is the remit of an oppressed class. Plus, that oppressed class is a subset of men. And the people who are being mocked are women.

Who's going to tell men what they can and can't do? Especially when it's just because some boring feminists have their knickers in a twist.

What exactly is it about men parodying womanhood (the oppressed sex class) in a crude and degrading way that you think shows society has come a long way?

I take it you're in favour of reviving the Black and White Minstrels next?

I agree except this Black slavery practices started and ended more recently

That’s not strictly true. Men were still entitled to rape their wives up until the 1990s! We still have FGM, turn a blind eye to the abuse of young girls (because police think being called racist would be worse), Magdalene laundries we’re running well into the 20th century, unmarried women were only allowed access to the pill as recently as the 60s, we’ve only very recently gained rights to certain employment...

'I take it you're in favour of reviving the Black and White Minstrels next?'

Here we go again!

“I always get kinda sad reading through threads like these, personally i see it as an art form, but I see all clothes and makeup and all forms of self expression like that”

@NekoShiro, I’m with you on that.

To me, drag has similar roots to music hall, burlesque and pantomime. It’s about subverting a cultural norm via parody and satire. I also see drag as being part of gay culture, although I understand that there are also straight and bio queens.

However, like burlesque there’s a not insignificant amount of poor quality, unfunny, performance-by-numbers stuff out there (I’ve seen some of it and it’s just cringeworthy) and it detracts hugely from the performances that are sharp, clever and beautiful. But drag as “yet another example of patriarchal oppression of women”? Nope.

@undercoverfunster, unless you can make a logical argument as to why parodying women is ok and parodying black people isn't, you should probably sit this one out. Hth.

I’ve also been wondering recently why it’s ok to portray or call women witches. I mean with the horrific history behind that, why is it ok? Recently learnt about how they were tortured into confessions, including the use of breast rippers. Utterly horrific.

To me, drag has similar roots to music hall, burlesque and pantomime. It’s about subverting a cultural norm via parody and satire.

In what way are women a 'cultural norm'?

undercover "Drag is about pushing the gender boundaries and norms, always has been. Drag Queens and Kings. But now those 'norms' are changing and I think it makes a lot of straight people very uncomfortable."

I think it's making a lot of gay people uncomfortable.

Yy @nineswans and for the record the roots of the black and white minstrels were the same as burlesque and pantomime too - it was all part of the explosion of low-brow entertainment of the 19th century afaik

'I think it's making a lot of gay people uncomfortable.'

Is it? Where? I'm gay, female, and I can't think of any of my many, many LGBTQ+ friends who find it 'uncomfortable'. You know more gay people than me? Uncomfortable ones?
Pretty sure if the LGBTQ+ community at large has issues with drag they would have voted with their feet years ago and it wouldn't exist now for mainstream audiences...

To me, drag has similar roots to music hall, burlesque and pantomime. It’s about subverting a cultural norm via parody and satire

How is clown makeup, high heels and being bitchy "subverting a cultural norm"? How is calling feminine drag queens "fishy" subverting a cultural norm? If women were dressing as caricatures of gay men, and referring to them via nick names that were typically used to denigrate gay men, there would be a huge backlash. But because its men doing this to women- its apparently all good. As per usual, its men who apparently get to define what being a woman is, and men who get to define whats offensive to women and what isn't. As a white woman, I wouldnt dream of thinking I had the right to decide what black woman should and shouldnt be offended by.

Such mysogynistic BS.

I'm bisexual and find drag very problematic. I was never surveyed by the community on my views. Doubt anyone else was either.

undercover can only judge from the gay people I know.
and of course birds of a feather...so similar people will be mates.

none of us were surprised when that young lad in Australia led the demo in the library though.

"You know more gay people than me?" No idea, how could I know that?

really I highlighted it because I didn't think it was just straight people who were uncomfortable. When we have discussions going back in time, it's very specific, perhaps it's what you feel the person intends?

so Lily Savage shows - I've never been, mates have - people seem to quite like in my friends group.

MNHQ guidelines are so complicated, I don't want to risk a ban by saying exactly what makes the male gay friends uncomfortable.

what's the demographic for the big shows, I wonder.

I guess it is ok to overlook that the term to ‘pass’ as a woman then is incredibly derogatory then. If they weren’t aiming to caricature women why would they use fishy? Why not use a positive term? Why centre their success on ‘passing’ as a woman if it is not about woman. Because it is all about the art form? It is all about the freedom of expression to reduce women to the ‘smell of their vagina’?

But, but, it is art and I as a woman just wouldn’t understand it......