To think he isn’t ‘just’ an animal?

[RhodaCamel]

My lovely, lovely little dog has to have a lump removed tomorrow.
He has had this fatty lump for a couple of months and I honestly thought it was a fatty lipoma so was absolutely shocked to hear the vet tell me on Saturday that it’s a mast cell tumour, it will need removing, sent to pathology and in a week we will find out what we are dealing with.
The vet did start to talk about what happens if it has spread and there was talk of possible radiotherapy or chemotherapy etc, which are obviously very expensive treatments. I would have to borrow the money for something like that tbh but he is the absolute joy in my life so I would definitely consider it.
However, dh says he says he wouldn’t want to put our dog through it and in all honesty what if we spend all that out and he doesn’t make it anyhow etc, that we have to think of the expense.
I’ve mentioned it to a couple of friends and several have said no way would they spend that kind of money, some wouldn’t even have the lump removed!! And according to them he’s only ‘just’ a dog at the end of the day.
This saddens me so much because these friends would quite happily spend thousands a holiday or something materialistic yet look at a beloved pet as something almost disposable.
I am a dog walker so spend a lot of time with dogs and I can honestly say they are nicer than a lot of humans I know!
So maybe I am BU but he’s been with me 8 years, he’s with me all day every day and has helped me though depression etc. I can not think of him las a nothing, to me he is a huge part of our family and not ‘just’ anything.

@UYScuti

This thing about dogs being 'nicer' than humans, well of course they are nicer they don't have the cognitive capacity to scheme and plot like humans do, furthermore we have genetically engineered them to have the personalities that we want them to have, they are human creations!
Do you think that if the dog species had evolved to a level of cognitive sophistication that humans have achieved they would be benign?

And the point of your post is?

OP, if you can afford it, and the prognosis is good, absolutely. It's not 'just a dog', and those that lack empathy or compassion enough to say that to you really are more to be pitied than scolded. Or just ignore them for the cold fish that they are.

That's a lovely post @messolini9. I've always felt with my animals that they've given me so much, I must do right by them, even when doing right by them sometimes hurts me so much.

My dogs are my absolute world, of course he's not just an animal.

We had a dog that had a cancerous lump on his mouth. We discussed treatmets with the vet, and decided to have the lump removed and see how things went, as ours was older and around 14. He recovered really well, but within 6 weeks the lump had grown back again, and had the most horrendous smell. At that point, we chose to have him PTS as it was kinder.

I don't regret anything, I felt we did what was kindest for him.

My only suggestion would be to get a second opinion, factor in what both vets suggest and do what's right for your dog. 8 is still young, and he should recover well. Fingers crossed.

SidsWife I imagine your husband was desperate to save his cat because it's a nicer and kinder creature than you seem to be.

who can dismiss your upset, as well as the dog's life, with "just a dog" remarks are the same kind of people who are capable of dismissing people too. There are plenty of them about - who believe some other people have less intrinsic worth because they are "just a woman" or "just a gay guy" or "just a brown person".

What a silly post. There is absolutely no correlation between people who do not share the anthropomorphising tendency of some intensely-attached pet owners and misognynists, homphones and racists.

So sorry to hear this. I think you have to wait and hear the full prognosis before you make decisions. Then ask searching questions about the impact of treatment. One of our cats had kidney cysts, the vet recommended treatment which was very distressing, and ultimately futile. We wish we had brought him home for a day or two for tlc then had him pts, and not just because of the expense but because it meant that the last two weeks of his life were very stressful for him and it is sad to remember that we put him through it.

I hope your boy has a good diagnosis.

These are dog ones .

We’ve had a January of one of our cats (age 12) having a tumour removed, diagnosed as a rare cancer that the vet recommended no chemo for as the results are not proven (in this cancer type, it’s very very rare in cats) and the stress of daily injections over a few weeks would be unfair.

I’ve had 3 weeks to come to terms with a terminal diagnosis, the guilt of agreeing to not go ahead with chemo and nursing my cat through a really tough op/post op.

Today she’s running around with her sister, chattering at the birds and really enjoying life. It’s hard to believe she has cancer 😞

My husband and I have made a pact to continue giving them both the best pampered loving life, check them both for lumps and be mindful of how they are, but I’m absolutely heartbroken. Knowing they’ll go before you is always in the back of your mind but I’m finding the reality of it tough at the minute.

There’s always people who (like me!) adore animals and pets and see them as a family member, others are so-so and other people can’t understand it. Try and surround yourself with people/websites who DO get it, to not upset yourself further.

pet-loss.net and blue cross for pets have been two sites that have offered advice and comfort to me, especially about ‘pre-loss grief’ so I hope they help others too 💚

Be kind to yourself, it’s a horrible time x

I love my dog with everything I have. I can’t have kids so he’s my baby (come back to the top to add that I’m in tears just writing this post, I can’t even imagine being in your position right now so thinking of you tomorrow).

I wouldn’t put him through chemo or radiotherapy though. If I was in your position I’d have the lump removed but in his best interests that would be it.

My last dog had a suspected brain tumour, he was 13 and no way could I put him through an anaesthetic for the scan at that age. When the time was right he passed away in my arms. Hardest thing I’ve ever done but the right thing too.

Part of being a pet owner is being a responsible pet owner and having their best interests at heart. We don’t unfortunately transfer this to human healthcare (I work in the NHS) and so many decisions are made by emotions than best interests. Yes you love them but what are best interests.

Going a bit off tangent but bear with me lol. My 87yo Nan has just been diagnosed which breast cancer for the 2nd time. She ideally needs a masctectomy and chemo but she isn’t fit enough for a general anaesthetic (and as my job role involves knowledge of anaesthetics I would advocate and seriously question any of my colleagues if they had agreed to one) plus she has kidney issues that means she can’t have the chemo that they want to give her.

So not entirely the same but I get the consequences but I’d rather dignity and respect in care and doing things in the best interests of the person you love (and I’m including animals in that cause they are little people). I really hope you have a good vet who is honest with you (if only animals had the NHS hey xx).

The difficulty with a pet is that they can’t understand and rationalise why you are putting them through something that makes them feel horrible like chemo or radiotherapy.

There’s also the though that if treatment is unsuccessful then their last weeks / months have been unpleasant and they don’t understand why.

There is absolutely no correlation between people who do not share the anthropomorphising tendency of some intensely-attached pet owners and misognynists, homphones and racists.

Is there a correlation between PP who choose highly selective posts out of context to make their points, & people who are feeling defensive about their empathy levels for other creatures, @Samhradh?

It's interesting that you chose to skate over my disclaimer that a correlation does not indicate a syllogistic fallacy - that all people who are indifferent to animals are also indifferent to human rights. I don't say it is so - I speculate as to how frequently they correlate, due to a basic lack of empathy.

Also interesting that you believe in the anthropomorphising tendency of some intensely-attached pet owners. Not all intensely-attached pet owners fall prey to anthropomorphism. Many of us love animals enough to study them, understand them, & interact with them in terms of their species traits.

The difficulty with a pet is that they can’t understand and rationalise why you are putting them through something that makes them feel horrible like chemo or radiotherapy.

The difficulty with threads like this is that you get a lot of people posting about the efficacy and effects of veterinary treatment with no actual veterinary knowledge. I am just quoting one post but there are a lot of them.

Chemotherapy and radiation therapy is NOT the same in animals as it is in humans. Dogs generally tolerate these treatments extremely well and have few or no side effects. Any that they may have are generally mild, of short duration and easily treated with e.g. anti nausea medication.

I am not at all advocating that it is always the right course of action or always in the best interests of the animal, that is always entirely based on each individual case, but where it is appropriate, chemo can and does offer dogs a greatly extended lifespan WITH extremely good quality of life.

In this case, this is a relatively young dog - I am assuming that as the OP describes him as her 'little dog' he is not a giant breed so 8 is not considered old. Presumably as not mentioned, he is otherwise in good health. He does not yet have a diagnosis, but even if it is a MCT, they are often relatively easily treated with surgery. It is not comparable to a 13 or 14 year old dog with a diagnosis of liver or bladder cancer with likely metastasis and/or other serious health issues, it's a completely different scenario.

Op one of our DC's beloved cats was knocked over and left we were searching high and low and when we found them they were really badly injured .My Dc devastated and we just scooped them up and rushed them to the vets .The operation and treatment was over a £1000 and heartbreaking we only had them a couple of month they passed away suddenly after making a really good recovery .Possibly underlying damage that we were not aware of .Would i do it again yes because they were a young cat and they deserved the chance and they were a much loved family member .Good luck

It's interesting that you chose to skate over my disclaimer that a correlation does not indicate a syllogistic fallacy - that all people who are indifferent to animals are also indifferent to human rights. I don't say it is so - I speculate as to how frequently they correlate, due to a basic lack of empathy

But there is no 'basic lack of empathy'. Or, the basic lack of empathy was telling the upset OP that her pet was 'just an animal'.

Not all intensely-attached pet owners fall prey to anthropomorphism. Many of us love animals enough to study them, understand them, & interact with them in terms of their species traits.

Obviously I don't know you, but I think that's comparatively rare in pet owners. Otherwise there would be a far stronger correlation between pet owners and people intensely concerned with welfare standards in the meat and dairy industries, who are probably vegetarian or vegan and avoid animal products.

I would speak to the vet more and take it from there. I would probably get the lump removed but whether I would want my dog to have chemo I am not sure. As I said though talking it through with the vet is the best thing to do.

I would definitely go into debt to pay for treatment for my dog. One of my friend's dogs was seriously ill about 5 years ago (she was only 2). Treatment cost £16,000 which she didn't have. She sold everything she could including jewellery and her car.

Lots of her friends have dogs (most including me and DH have the same breed) and we all put in some money to make sure she could pay the vet.

Her dog is fine now

I wouldn't spend that on my dog now I have kids, I just can't justify it but that's why we have a good insurance policy for her.

@SidsWife
How bloody horrible and not the thread for a heartless comment like that.

I'm hoping your dog is ok OP.

We have two much loved dogs but, having watched my brother and friend try to save their dogs at any cost we decided we wouldn't do this for both the dog's comfort and our budget. One of mine has lumps that we haven't tested for this reason - I don't think he'll be with us much longer but I don't regret our decision as he is pain free and enjoying the time he does have. Money is an issue for us too but not the primary reason we made the decision.

Thanks @VetOnCall I was getting a bit sick of all the posts about chemo being barbaric, etc. Hopefully now a vet and also someone who has first hand knowledge of the process has commented, those posts might stop, but I doubt it.

And yes to eight being not old for a smaller breed dog. Our family spaniels have all lived to
14/15 with a good quality of life. My old dog went under GA at 13 to have her teeth cleaned and had another two years of good walks, food and ear rubs.

I have an old (26) horse and a middle aged cat (12) cat. I also have a chronic illness. Riding and caring for the horse and making the cat's life safe and a bit spoilt, keeps me enjoying my life and theirs. Fortunately, most people understand that. If they don't, I smile politely and change the subject. As mother used to say, "where it ain't, you can't find it".

But there is no 'basic lack of empathy'. Or, the basic lack of empathy was telling the upset OP that her pet was 'just an animal'.
There you have it @Samhradh - a basic lack of empathy.

(on pet-owners not anthropomorphising) Obviously I don't know you, but I think that's comparatively rare in pet owners.
I can only vouch for those I know - not aware of any studies on this, so can only stand by my own observable data. As I'm sure do you. But if you don't enjoy pets, you possibly hang out with fewer pet-friendly households than do I? - who knows.

Otherwise there would be a far stronger correlation between pet owners and people intensely concerned with welfare standards in the meat and dairy industries, who are probably vegetarian or vegan and avoid animal products.
Why would there be?
Many farmers love their animals. Doesn't stop them eating meat or using the slaughter house.
Why would pet owners be any different?
I was discussing basic empathy, not embracing veganism as a virtue signal to display love for every living creature.
People are more complex than that.

He may not be "just" an animal, but it could be immoral/cruel to make medical decisions on the same basis you would for a human.

If an animal is going to be suffering as a consequence of treatment being preferred to euthanasia, he's going through that for your benefit, not his.

Euthanasia is not an option for humans because the knowledge and fear of it are factors in whether it's allowed. Things are different for animals. This means making decisions for animals is very, very different than making decisions for humans, even when you love both equally.

The difficulty with threads like this is that you get a lot of people posting about the efficacy and effects of veterinary treatment with no actual veterinary knowledge. I am just quoting one post but there are a lot of them.

I wasn’t really intending to comment but n the efficacy of treatment, more on the overall experience, having been in the same position myself.

Efficacious treatment can still be a stressful and unpleasant experience and you simply can’t rationalise it to a dog in the same way that you can with another person.

I believe that what makes this type of decision decision so hard for many pet owners.

Thanks @VetOnCall I was getting a bit sick of all the posts about chemo being barbaric, etc. Hopefully now a vet and also someone who has first hand knowledge of the process has commented, those posts might stop, but I doubt it

This ^^

Why are so many people basically writing off a dog that might well recover? Doom laden crap!

OP, fingers crossed the lump can be removed easily and that no or little further treatment is needed. Read what @VetOnCall wrote and make the decisions YOU want to, not feel guilty because some random on the internet has suggested anything more than a tablet is evil dog cruelty and a waste of money.

I hope all goes well for you and your beloved dog.

Firstly, thank you all for your kind replies, I wasn’t expecting so many replies and have just gone through them all.
Secondly, I have just got a second opinion as many people in my village had recommended a local vets (the one we went to on Saturday was a big chain style vets).
The second vet was lovely and has recommended that the lump should be removed and then obviously sent off for analysis and we’ll know more in a week or so. I mentioned the chemo/radiotherapy and he said to not think that far off yet. He is also able to do the op for HALF the price of the other vet practice!!
Vetoncall yes, my dog is a norfolk terrier so quite small. The lump is on his back towards his tail end, it’s 4x5 cm so will need quite large margins and the vets says it’s in quite a tricky area because of the margins.
I’m sorry for all of you who have poorly pets or those who have lost theirs, it’s absolutely heart wrenching and I know that is something non animal lovers just can’t comprehend. My beloved cat was 14 when I found a huge mass on his thigh, it was cancer which had spread and he was very anaemic as a result. As devastating as it was we had to make the decision to have him pts then and there. The vet had said we could have had him treated but it would have been unfair to him. I wouldn’t put my dog through anything which would cause him distress. The vet has told us the same as Vetoncall that the treatments aren’t as taxing as for humans so that is going to be something that I will really have to think about, if (hopefully not) the time comes. But of course, these treatments are so very expensive. We don’t have insurance but have always had a savings pot for this very thing but it isn’t a bottomless pit.
JKScot4 and Janus I’m sorry your dogs had MCT too but it’s reassuring to know they have been ok, I’m finding it hard to find many stories of outcomes of dogs with MCT just info on the actual condition.

But if you don't enjoy pets, you possibly hang out with fewer pet-friendly households than do I? - who knows.

I grew up on a farm, and have friends who own everything from working collies and ragdoll cats to labradors, retired greyhounds and racehorses. I walk a friend's lab daily, and catsit for my sister.

Of course, I don't know what you mean by pet-friendly. If you mean the 'furbabies' type of person, or people who carry chihuahuas with their own Instagram accounts around in their handbags, no.

*Many farmers love their animals. Doesn't stop them eating meat or using the slaughter house. Why would pet owners be any different?
I was discussing basic empathy, not embracing veganism as a virtue signal to display love for every living creature.

See above. I grew up on a dairy farm. I'm not sure why you're talking about farmers. I was talking about people who have a pampered pooch and readily eat cheap, inhumanely-reared meat without thinking twice.

Interesting that you view veganism as virtue-signalling, rather than an acknowledgement that a dairy cow's life is as valuable or not as a dog's.

People are more complex than that.

People are more self-deluding than that.