To think he isn’t ‘just’ an animal?

[RhodaCamel]

My lovely, lovely little dog has to have a lump removed tomorrow.
He has had this fatty lump for a couple of months and I honestly thought it was a fatty lipoma so was absolutely shocked to hear the vet tell me on Saturday that it’s a mast cell tumour, it will need removing, sent to pathology and in a week we will find out what we are dealing with.
The vet did start to talk about what happens if it has spread and there was talk of possible radiotherapy or chemotherapy etc, which are obviously very expensive treatments. I would have to borrow the money for something like that tbh but he is the absolute joy in my life so I would definitely consider it.
However, dh says he says he wouldn’t want to put our dog through it and in all honesty what if we spend all that out and he doesn’t make it anyhow etc, that we have to think of the expense.
I’ve mentioned it to a couple of friends and several have said no way would they spend that kind of money, some wouldn’t even have the lump removed!! And according to them he’s only ‘just’ a dog at the end of the day.
This saddens me so much because these friends would quite happily spend thousands a holiday or something materialistic yet look at a beloved pet as something almost disposable.
I am a dog walker so spend a lot of time with dogs and I can honestly say they are nicer than a lot of humans I know!
So maybe I am BU but he’s been with me 8 years, he’s with me all day every day and has helped me though depression etc. I can not think of him las a nothing, to me he is a huge part of our family and not ‘just’ anything.

Whatever you decide is in no way failing him because whatever you decide is in his interests only

I'm a hcp and have said for years that I absolutely would never put a pet through some of the things we put people through just to keep them from dying, especially those people who are not fully compus mentus. (and think dnacpr's should be given far more often than they are but that's another thread)

I'd take the money argument out of it completely for now and focus on the quality of life aspect.

As pp have said, chemo can be quite horrific, even for those who know exactly what is going on and why they feel so dreadful. I don't think I could put a beloved pet through that trauma without a guarantee of a good and pain free life afterwards. I am very much a pet person, I adore animals but I think a quiet peaceful death is far preferable to a long and painful treatment with no guarantees of survival.

Fingers crossed it doesn't come to that decision for you though op. It's a hard one to make.

@RhodaCamel
One of my dogs had mast cell cancer, tumour removal last April, came back as Stage 2/1, so no further treatment needed, the op and tests weren’t cheap but it’s gave her a life expectancy of 5/6years and she was 7 at diagnosis. Hopefully you have caught this early which increase the chance of it not having spread, just take each day as it comes.
Feel free to PM me.

My friends cat had cancer. She did the whole treatment chemo radio etc.
The cat had to be pts in the end anyway. My friend wishes she hadn't done it as the FB treatment was hugely stressful for the cat.

Of course he's not just an animal. He's family. I prefer my cat over 90% of humans I know. I love him and he loves me.

Sympathies, OP. I agree with PPs that you need to balance heart and head here. The Tack Room board on Mn is always good on this, because obviously horses are not just 'pets' in the way a cat or dog is, they are also working animals, and expensive to keep even when they're in good health, and liable to be grown out of by children so horseowners need to think about selling or make other financial decisions like whether it's kinder to euthanise a horse who may, because of age, quirks, or ill health, find itself sold on successively in unideal situations, if the owner is unable to keep him/retire him -- far more than the average pet owner.

I think you'll have to take this one step at a time OP and then discuss with your vet what the best option is. Personally, I wouldn't want to put a pet through chemotherapy - it's not fair. It's bad enough putting humans through it when the choice is theirs - but it's barbaric to put an animal through that and I say that as an animal lover. I get why you'd want to extend his life, if you could, but I wouldn't personally go into debt in order to put a pet through such a terrible ordeal.

Oh, and I think that's an unfair comment about your friends' 'materialism'. You cherish your pet, he's meaningful to you, but to anyone else, he's as valuable/cherishable as any other animal. And some people express their feeling for animals differently -- I am not enthusiastic about having a pet, but I care about animal welfare and am a strict vegetarian. I personally find it disconnected thinking that pet owners love their animal but happily eat cheap meat, battery eggs, or find some cultures eating 'pets' intolerable while their interest in farm animal welfare is nil, but people ultimately make their own moral choices.

I'm so sorry, OP. You must be heartbroken. I'd say don't try to rationalise things just yet. People are being a bit hasty with you there.

However, I do agree there's a big difference between a human choosing to suffer, with an understanding of why they're suffering, and an animal being put through suffering it doesn't understand.

My SIL is an enormous animal person - they are her babies, she sees them as just the same as our human baby - and she has actually had a vet tell her (gently) that they cannot in good conscience continue to treat her animals because it's become too cruel. There is a point at which a vet will tell you it's no longer ok. But if you've got a good vet and you trust them, they should be able to have that conversation with you, if and when it comes to that.

Coming at this from the point of view of having agreed a do not resuscitate order a few days ago and telling doctors pain relief only, I would be reluctant to go down the drugs route when he probably doesn't have much quality of life. I'd take the vets advice whether to PTS to be honest.

‘Just a dog’ is awful.
However, I wouldn’t put a dog through more than a lump removal. It’s cruel and unfair.

Guys, please, I know you're trying to be helpful but once again: CHEMO IN DOGS IS NOT THE SAME AS IN HUMANS. Please stop assuming human experiences are the same as dog's. The doses are much, much lower, the aim of chemo is entirely different, and a lot of dogs have zero side effects. It's not barbaric; in many cases, a dog will continue to live exactly the same life as they already are during chemo.

I have had many dogs and when at the vets I always ask myself
"who am I keeping this dog alive for?"
If the answer is me, it's the wrong answer.

I've had a dog with cancer and I had to weigh up the fact that while my intentions would be good, the dog wouldn't know what was happening or why. All they would know would be that they felt terrible and that would be down to me.
In the end we went with good pain relief and made sure we made the most of the short time we had left

From PetMD: 'Side effects for dogs are milder and generally last for a shorter period of time than for humans receiving chemotherapy because dogs are given less-aggressive treatment, Intile said. In fact, 75 to 80 percent of dogs have no side effects, she said. When present, typical side effects include loss of appetite, vomiting and diarrhea.

Less than five percent will suffer those effects more severely and will need to be brought into the vet to receive fluids, she said. “There may be little windows of time to restrict activity, maybe days three to five (after treatment). But we don’t want you to put your dog in a bubble. Our goal is for your pet to have a totally normal lifestyle,” she said.'

It worries me that a lot of people would make a decision on their pet's life without actually knowing that chemo in dogs is usually a totally different experience to in humans and not barbaric But hopefully in they were in that position, the vet would educate them, I suppose.

This is such a difficult and complex moral question and one that most pet owners would struggle with.

I think all you can ever do is look at all the facts in your own specific case and try to determine the best course of action for your dog, based on your circumstances.

There is no simple answer that suits all dogs and families, except that owners must do whatever they can to minimise suffering and enhance welfare.

I agree with not trying to make that decision before you have to. Wait to see what the lump results are and then speak to your vet about all the options. Take time to decide on what's right for you and your dog.

I hope it's better news than you are fearing.

I would spend any amount of money on my dog that wouldn't leave me on the streets or in serious debt. My dog comes way, way before holidays etc on my priority list.

I guess if you're not a "pet person", you haven't had years with a particular animal in your home and cuddling up to you every day, so you would struggle to understand the attachment. It's not a value judgment, but it is insensitive in the circumstances.

Hope your dog is ok ♥️

I loved my dog so much that I didn’t put him through operations and treatments because it would have traumatised him, dogs don’t understand operations so to them it’s like medical torture. I put my dog to sleep because I loved him more than anything, I loved him so much I didn’t make him suffer just so I could have him around. I didn’t want to be selfish.

Sometimes it’s hard but you need to decide what’s best for your dog not yourself.

I think people are just giving their thoughts Deslynhamsmostache I don't think you need to sad face people,

DesLynamsMoustache

It doesn’t matter. It’s ‘playing God’ for want of a better phrase.
I’d never do it to an animal.

Why doesn't your insurance cover it? Was it counted a pre-existing condition or will it exceed your policy limit? Can you talk to them about it?

(I'm assuming that as a responsible owner of a beloved pet, you have taken out insurance. All our pets have it because we never want to have to decide on their care based on money)

Surely age and prognosis plays a role here too?

One of our dogs was once attacked so badly she had all her skin removed from her body - pulled down to her waist in rolls.

It took 12 hours of emergency care to stabilise her. It took 4 hours of surgery to fix her. It then took another hour later on when a piece of the skin failed to survive. She wore a body cast for 8 weeks. This may well have felt like "medical torture" to her, but she was a tough cookie who was only 6 years old. Since that incident she has had another 10 years of great, great life and health and is asleep at my feet now. We felt it was in HER best interest to have that surgery because she still had plenty of (potential) life ahead of her and was young and fit enough to have a good outcome.

If she'd been 14 years old at the time, we probably would have made a different decision.

It is a really difficult thing to decide because he is a family member. I would take into account my pet's age, I would want to be sure that there was still time for him to have some good years left after treatment. But I think I would lean more toward euthanasia over a lot of treatment, mostly because my Dad died of cancer and tbh he could have done without the last couple of months. If it had been me I would have wanted someone to just up the morphine and let me go pain-free and a bit early.

I am so sorry you and your little dog are going through this. FWIW, my JRT and the absolute apple of my eye, my best friend and constant companion was diagnosed with a tumour on his thyroid. I immediately decided I wasn't going to prolong his suffering and as soon as he was in pain/unwell, I would do what I needed to do for him. After a week or so following the diagnosis, we went to a specialist referral centre and he was CTI scanned and as the tumour hadn't spread we agreed to have it removed. This was successful and he went on to live quite happily for three more years and reached the age of 16. I don't think I would have agreed to chemo, but if an operation can buy him extra time and it is pain free, then I would do it again. He recovered from the operation quickly and was back to his annoying self in no time. In the end though, it was the tumour that got him and he slowed down considerably in his last couple of months, but he was happy, loved his food and enjoyed ice cream up until the very end.
Whatever you decide to do, I hope it works out for you both and send you both lots of hugs and best wishes.

My dog had a mast cell rumour removed last year, as far as we know that’s it and no further treatment is needed. There’s a risk it will come back and we inspect her for any lumps but sometimes these can be internal and we wouldn’t know without having regular ultrasounds etc. I’m trying to (stick my head in the sand) be positive that that’s it! I hope you get some good news with your dog.
Also, to us, our dogs are our family. We lost one in January and every one of us sobbed for days, even friends and my mum cried! Some people are animal people some aren’t, I don’t take offence when someone doesn’t really get it, if they don’t have animals they just don’t understand.

Very best wishes whatever you decide for your friend.