To ask for your opinion on faith schools?

[Syrinx89]

That's it, really. In this day and age, it seems strange to me.

Neednewwellies

And again, your kids, your decision.

It’s not. She has the same funding allocation as any other child from the government, minus what the Church pays. Less cost to you, not more.

What I meant was, we are all contributing through the taxation system to a system of schooling from which specific groups are excluded. For no better reason than refusing to listen to a man in a pointy hat wittering on about ancient myths re-written and repurposed to aid in the medieval power structures. The contribution from the church - which is minimal, or even non-existent in some establishments - is not enough to justify this exclusion.

@NameChange84, I believe you have the right to that, just not that it should be taxpayer funded or considered a local school by the LA when allocating admissions. I would never want my children exposed to religious instruction at school and I say that as a person of faith. It must be hugely frustrating to an atheist if their LA allocates them a school such as yours and feels it has discharged its obligations under the law.

For no better reason than refusing to listen to a man in a pointy hat wittering on about ancient myths re-written and repurposed to aid in the medieval power structures

You see, this is where I switch off from you. You don’t respect my right to faith, so I don’t respect your right to an opinion. It’s a dead end for us.

I think to put the focus on schools rather than whether, as a society we want to be defined as secular or not is problematic.

Regarding many of the Church schools, they developed to cater for immigrant and poorer families particularly in the cities. Those children were not necessarily wanted in the state system by locals. It is important to remember that.

For those who want a secular education, that is what free schools were designed to provide. The church communities built their schools so the government created the free school policy so that you could create yours. from scratch - the way you wanted it.

It seems to me that the very characteristic that makes these schools desirable (community based, organised, happy places) come from the shared philosophy of the community who inhabit them and work to create this atmosphere. To then come in and want the same treatment without contributing in spirit is something that wouldn't be tolerated in any other domain. I can't understand how the argument surrounding this was so narrow and excluded any real understanding of how school communities are built and sustained. It is not a pix and mix.

pick and mix!!!

You can have your faith, if it is genuinely faith, but you need to have it on your own time. What you have no right whatsoever to do is force other people to pay for it. You have no right to force it on anyone else as a way of keeping up the privilege, wealth and opportunities of a naice select little group. You want a nice little cosy faith school, pay for it privately. This situation where faith schools are forced on the rest of us, or if you're not in a certain social group you are not welcome in education, has to stop. It is plain snobbery, which is what Britain is really built on.

This is what you have been told since page 1 of this thread but you don't seem to have listened much to anyone.

You can have your faith, if it is genuinely faith, but you need to have it on your own time. What you have no right whatsoever to do is force other people to pay for it.

That isn’t true, and it isn’t what is happening. Nobody who earns the same as me and has the same number of children (bar additional funding for SEND) is paying any more for my child’s education than I am paying for theirs. It is the other way round. Part of the cost of my child’s education is taken off your shoulders by the Church’s contribution.

And snobbery has nothing to do with it. That’s your interpretation of why people send their children to faith schools, and it is unrelated to anything I have said.

No, because the church's contribution DOES NOT EXIST in many instances, or is an insulting proportion where it does. And in the meantime non-faith people are being excluded from decent establishments.

Two other facts repeated throughout this thread that you have similarly chosen to ignore.

No, because the church's contribution DOES NOT EXIST in many instances

As in the case of academies?

or is an insulting proportion where it does.

Insulting whom? These are church buildings on church land, overseen by the Catholic Education Service. Any money they save you is a service, not an insult.

Anyway, your hostility to faith education is obviously strong. We will simply have to disagree. I think it’s a fundamental right and am happy to extend exactly the same right to you. I can’t do more.

@mantarays, no, the main objection is not regarding financial contribution (and just to be clear, the Church isn’t actually supporting all church schools although it may be in the case of your school) it’s about the unfairness of the admission criteria. If your school takes 200 children a year, those 200 children should be the closest 200 children that want a place at the school. If not, the LA cannot include faith schools in school allocation procedures.

I will probably get shot down for this but the decent establishments arise because of the people in the school whether the school is faith or non faith, state or private, selective or comprehensive.
A decent school is usually where the parents are supportive and teachers stay in post for a long time so a community is formed.

You don’t respect my right to faith, so I don’t respect your right to an opinion.

I thought Christians were meant to turn the other cheek.

Neednewwellies

Cannot or should not? Because they do. And people are entitled to access an education within their faith. I get you think it should be otherwise, but it isn’t, and I disagree with you on the principle.

Anyway, this is starting to make me feel stressed so I am going to go now.

I went to a C of E school as did my siblings and none of us are religious. It was a small village school and we did walk to the church as a school for certain things. My family weren't religious either but some did a protest against the school putting on a traditional nativity play at Christmas which I always thought it was a strange thing to do.
My son is at one because so many primary schools are faith schools.

@ExEUCitizen 'is force other people to pay for it.'

You are not being forced to pay for it any more than I am being forced to pay for anyone's child. Each child in the country gets the same amount of money attached to them from the DoE and that is then given to the school they attend. How each school spends that money may differ and if there are additional needs the amount may vary.

One of the saddest thing about this is the falsity regarding these Church schools. Many of the children attended very poor schools with terrible building conditions and poor resources - in '97 when labour took on a lot of them it was because they knew certain communities had been badly neglected. At soon as the money came in, people outside of the communities rushed in and the intergenerational poverty cycle continued because of these misguided arguments. It is a very twisted version of what really goes on - all children have a right to education. This attack on faith schools is misdirected - the real divisive issue in this country is the difference between private and state education. When that is resolved we can talk about equality.

Because otherwise you have the juxtaposition of LA allowing faith schools to set (the majority) of their admissions policy yet at the same time, they are saying these schools must be included when they do allocations. So effectively, if it’s very local but over subscribed, it’s tough and you cannot insist that distance should be the main criteria. However, if it’s your nearest school and undersubscribed and you don’t want it because it’s a faith school, the LA just say it’s tough. This is completely unacceptable.

these schools don't celebrate diversity Depends how you define that. My DC go to a faith secondary in a city where there is a real mix of schools though all are comprehensive, no academic selection here thankfully. Their faith secondary has a far more varied intake than the mainly white, atheist and very middle class comprehensive that is our catchment school. Their faith secondary has a city wide catchment and has a real socioeconomic and racial mix plus 20% of the pupils are from a faith that is not Christian. I'd argue that they celebrate diversity on a daily basis by being part of a school with an ethos that promotes community and the importance of caring for others. I'm not saying that secular schools don't do that, the majority of them do, but I don't buy the argument that faith = no diversity and secular = diversity. You just have to look at schools with tight catchment boundaries to question that.

@ExEUCitizen - I think your argument is based on an incorrect understanding of how funding works. Church communities contribute a lot in terms of funding, manpower and resources.

All schools are not equal, not in Britain. All children are not equal, not in Britain. Faith is one means of distinguishing a particular set. mantarays came out with exactly the same confused lie regarding funding and I replied to that. I am glad I have raised enough questions that the christian is running away. If only the whole class establishment in Britain was so easily got rid of.

And absolutely agree with you @Girlinterruption

Neednewwellies

If I am reading you correctly, you are saying it is unfair for people to be forced to send their children to faith schools? I don’t disagree that that needs to change.

Also very diverse in nationality/heritage - much more so than the state schools in many places.

Don’t be stressed. I disagree with posters on here who resort to belittle your faith for obvious reasons but even if your faith wasn’t also my faith I would still firmly disagree with you on this. However, only by listening to the views of those we disagree with can we learn more about the world and ourselves. This is one of the reasons we chose not to send our children to Catholic school.