To ask for your opinion on faith schools?

[Syrinx89]

That's it, really. In this day and age, it seems strange to me.

@JassyRadlett

Should have joined us Catholics. They wouldn't try that nonsense with us (and the girls' schools always outrank the boys in results).

@Oulu but we have a Christian representative in House of Lords, the crown represents the head of the CofE and we have parishes all over the country that participate in local community initiatives. My point is that this country is Anglican in nature if not practice and these elements will need to be unpicked first and a replacement set up. Then the schools can actively socialise the children to the law and culture of the land. At the moment church schools are simply a reflection of the larger state apparatus.

So how does this justify non Cof E faith schools?

We are at least nominally a Christian country, but I would seriously question whether that is really the culture of the UK. We don't of course have Catholic bishops in the House of Lords, let alone leaders of other religions. Given the increasing marginalisation of religion, I cannot for the life of me see how children would lose out or what would have to be unpicked if we no longer had faith schools. You only have to look at the many successful secular schools around to see that children cope perfectly well with being educated in that environment.

It's also worth looking at France. Despite the separation of church and state there, that is arguably a country where faith has more relevance to people's daily lives than it does in the UK, possibly because it puts so much emphasis on religious freedom. Yet French children manage to cope very well in secular schools.

I agree Gin. Additionally most religions are not in fact tolerant of others. The UK is way too soft on these schools, if they are inadequate the second time of inspecting they should be closed. It should not be possible in 2020 for a child to be denied a place at a state funded school because of their religion.

humanism.org.uk/2020/01/22/40-of-independent-faith-schools-fail-to-meet-ofsted-standards-with-steiner-schools-failing-badly/

Accepting all of that about the Catholic church's contribution to education, @MrsWx, you still haven't dealt with the undoubted fact that it wasn't altruistic. If it was, they wouldn't have faith-based selection criteria, nor would they insist on Catholic religious observation within the school.

I'm sure they don't spend all the taxpayer's money they receive on religious propaganda, but the fact that so many limit its use to children of the Catholic faith and do insist on RC observance within the school does put them on a different footing to other schools receiving the same funding. Whichever faith is concerned, I do think there needs to be a strict rule that if school owners want faith-based selection and to promote one particular faith then they don't get access to public funding.

France is a Republic.

@sewingsinger worrying report. What are we teaching the next generation when schools are allowed to teach females are lesser than males. I worry for our daughters, we should be campaigning against this. School is for teaching facts not made up stories.

If you want your children to learn about religion do it outside school

@sewingbee's link proves my point. These are independent schools. If we push religious families into the private sector there is little real regulation and authority we have over them however due to charitable status we will still end up subsiding them.

Keeping faith schools in the state sector allows us to regulate them and enforce a curriculum based on educational values rather than religious (for example science has to teach evolution and creationism is not allowed).

I know it seems counterintuitive but given the history and make up of this country and the relationship we have with private/faith/state bodies the reality, in practice will not achieve the aims of equalising the landscape.

I know several Steiner adults. The gaps in their basic knowledge are truly shocking.

@Oulu so we have RC schools filled with children's whose family don't agree with the ethos, values or beliefs, at the detriment of children's families who do?

I can't speak for everywhere. Our Catholic school has less than 50% Catholic children. Yet it is the most popular school in the area so it's over-subscribed, as it's the better pick of a bad bunch in a deprived area I guess. Come school registration when children don't get a place Catholic people are blamed as it must be their fault, yet the percentage of children non-Catholic at the school is actually higher. It also wouldn't be the first pick for many non-Catholic families if the other 5 non-Catholic schools within walking distance were better. However would remain top pick for the Catholic families. It's not the Catholic Churches fault that the government aren't doing much to improve schools as a whole.

Religion has no place in schools. It is brainwashing, pure and simple.

What is a “solid catholic education”? As someone who went to a catholic school, I can’t stop laughing at that comment.

Religion has no place in schools. It is brainwashing, pure and simple.

You could say that statement backs up the need for religion staying within a state school system where whats taught is regulated.

It also backs up the point in why religious people would be dubious about accepting secular schools. As I personal think more people share your view meaning there's a bigger risk that by switching more people would want it pushed out completely, and I don't think religious people want to take that risk, so therefore will fight to keep their faith schools.

Keeping faith schools in the state sector allows us to regulate them and enforce a curriculum based on educational values rather than religious (for example science has to teach evolution and creationism is not allowed).

It’s perfectly possible - and preferable overall - to introduce greater regulation of the private education sector. Again, we need whole system reforms.

I know it seems counterintuitive but given the history and make up of this country and the relationship we have with private/faith/state bodies the reality, in practice will not achieve the aims of equalising the landscape.

You keep saying this like the UK is the only country to have had to grapple with these issues.

But every time an attempt is made for whole school reforms it gets closed down due to the opposition.

In the 60s when comprehensive schools were introduced people sent their kids to private, single sex and faith schools leaving an unrepresentative cohort of comprehensive children.

In the 80s we saw more children going to private school as state schools dealt with legacy issues in areas, the 90s saw this jump again - people are writing on here about how and why they send their children to certain schools and the sacrifices they are prepared to make.

I agree with your ideology - I really do believe that education should be equal. I just know from teaching it is dependent on many variables - not all under state control.

The reason I refer to the unique nature of this country is due to our old public schools and the role they play in public life - they are fairly unique but are a feature of the educational landscape. There are things here (head of CofE, for a start) that have historical significance here that won’t disappear with new educational laws - that is what people see.

I also think we need a public debate on this - a referendum even.

My bet is the result would not be in favour of changing and I think the DofE knows that - to me, this indicates that people will support certain practices regardless of what is better for the majority in society. And certainly wont support initiatives that help the poor at the perceived disadvantage of their own children.

If parents want their children to learn about their religion, then that is what church is for surely?

Church attendance is lower than it is has ever been. I do not understand why so many parents want their children to receive a “solid catholic education” but do not want to shoulder the responsibility for that themselves. If faith schools were abolished, how many parents would be willing to ensure that their children attended church and Sunday school regularly to learn about their religion? Not many, I think. If faith is so important, why is that not reflected in current church attendance?

Standing room only in the RC churches in London (those without schools, too).

www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-wales-51407327

Apparently Wales are going to stop parents from being able to opt their children out of RE. Does anyone knows if this includes collective worship?

My kids go to the local c of e school, there aren't any local secular alternatives. I'd thought this would be fine before they started, and of course it could be worse since I suppose at least I agree with the 'Christian' values that they hope to instil.

However, previously they went to a secular school which did as much if not more to instil values of kindness, compassion, acceptance, forgiveness and did not indoctrinate them at the same time! My kids are sad that most music in their new school involves singing about Jesus (previously they sang 'we've got the whole world in our hands' etc - unashamedly secular versions of the old Christian classics, but which inspired a sense of community amongst themselves, and empowered them to express love for each other rather than singing about how lucky they are to have God's love for them... much healthier, I think!)

I think it is wrong that we send our kids to schools where the people that they should be looking up to for truth and honesty discuss bible stories as if they were historical facts. I work in the school sometimes and am absolutely dumbfounded at the time spent discussing 'miracles' from the Bible. We don't believe them in our household and so our kids at a very young age are put in a situation where they are conflicted because we are telling them that, to the best of our ability, we cannot see any evidence that God exist, although similarly we don't have any evidence that s/he doesn't, and that we know that people from different cultures have different belief systems; simultaneously at school they are told, by the adults they trust and look up to, to celebrate the 'fact' that Jesus changed water into wine. Etc etc. I think they're too young to be presented with these conflicts.

Also, children have been told that if they have no-one to turn to, they can confide their problems in God. Seriously not useful for kids who are being bullied.

Yes I can see that it will be difficult to create a secular state system with sufficient regulation of private schools etc, but I do think we should try.

Please can someone post a link or anything else that directs me towards how to take action to get this done so that I can direct my efforts usefully? I could expend a lot of energy ranting about this here otherwise!! Huge thanks in advance.

Btw - I'm not anti-religion. All cultures have their own belief systems, and many people benefit from their faiths. But children should have the right to be educated in schools without fear of indoctrination.

@Lovemornings - you might he interested in humanism.org.uk as they have various campaigns around faith schools and collective worship.

It's a free country, so if people want to send their children to faith schools, as long as they teach the curriculum that's fine.

But I do think faith schools are a bad idea. Any segregation along cultural or religious lines is a bad idea - whatever the mix of characteristics you've got a in a particular population, everyone's much better off being all mixed in and getting along with each other. Segregation leads to problems.

And no way should any faith schools get public funding. That's just insane.

@Lovemornings We share a lot of experiences! Really hard to tread that fine line between being open and factual and at the same time not undermining the school and their trust in their teachers.

As well as the Humanists, the National Secular Society and the Fair Admissions Campaign are both active in this area.

@Justajot and @JessyRadlett - many thanks! I will take a look and hopefully will find an outlet where this frustration can be channelled into something useful! :-) Thanks too, OP

The problem of some children having a poorer choice of schools because they aren't the right religion can be solved easily. Just introduce a law that says religious preference can only be give in proportion to financial contribution. In most faith schools, government provides roughly 90% of funding, so only 3 spaces in a class of 30 would be allowed to be reserved for children of the right religion.

@Lovemornings, I recognise a lot of that too!

The values land-grab annoys me more than anything. DS's school continually references its values as [uniquely and specially] "Christian values" and I've been told in terms by a senior leader that they understand values "better" than community schools because as Christians, their values come from God and they have a multi-layered understanding which people without faith can't share. Divisive and rather enraging.

Music mostly happens as part of collective worship in DS's school too :-(

Something else I've noticed at DS's school is that collective worship themes mirror the RE topics where possible. In collective worship, of course they're not talking "about" religious belief - these are acts of worship within the faith. But it's inevitable that if the vicar or Head has been in that morning, talking about Bible Story A or B as fact, that that "Bible as fact" presentation will colour the RE topic that afternoon, even if the teaching in class assiduously prefaces everything with "some Christians believe that...". It also bothers me that there is just an expectation that all the children will actively join in with worship and prayer. When I was at school the teachers used to say something on the lines of "we're going to have a quiet moment, hands still eyes closed, to think or for those who want to, pray" - so there was an explicit opt-out for those not of the faith to reflect, or even just sit politely and wait. At DS's school it's all "pray with me children! let's all pray together!" - no opt out in sight, and they do the Lord's Prayer with actions so it is very visible and identifying if anyone doesn't join in. DS doesn't believe and he's having to learn some hard lessons at a very young age about conscience vs conformity, and respecting the beliefs of others when you don't share them. Which are probably valuable lessons but right now the time and energy they take up at school and at home could probably be used more profitably on his spelling and reading practice!

I was also really surprised to see how much the RE curriculum can in practice vary between a VC church school and a community school, from my naïve starting assumption that it wouldn't look much different because legally they all have to follow the same syllabus set by the county for RE so it's going to be broadly the same everywhere. So alongside the national campaigns mentioned upthread, something else you might want to look into is your locally agreed syllabus for RE. You may be aware (I wasn't!) that the Church of England rolled out a new "resource" for RE teaching called Understanding Christianity a couple of years ago, which is massively influencing the way RE is taught in church schools - in my personal view, for the worse. Understanding Christianity is billed as a "resource" but looks and quacks like an alternative syllabus. It is, by deliberate design, grounded in knowing the Bible and acquiring detailed knowledge of Christian (specifically, Protestant) theology, to address perceived failings of RE teaching in that regard. Church school are pushed/obligated to use it as much as possible to plan their lessons, obviously except for the percentage of RE time mandated to be allocated to study of other religions. Understanding Christianity appears to be squeezing out a more broad-based, multi-faceted treatment of RE topics and placing more emphasis on theology at the expense of philosophical enquiry, cultural understanding etc. So you might usefully find out what's going on around this in your area, think about what good RE teaching looks like to you, contact local councillors who sit on the board which sets and monitors the local syllabus and ask questions.

@PettyContractor so the religious children who don't get in go where?
If they go to state schools in large numbers what do you think will happen to the character of those schools? How long until they change ethos - they will be in the majority there.