To ask for your opinion on faith schools?

[Syrinx89]

That's it, really. In this day and age, it seems strange to me.

To secularise the whole landscape is my answer but again, with the history we have in the UK and the relationship the Church plays with the state, I can't see it happening. With increasing numbers of non Christian faith families we cannot discriminate against other faiths and will have to regulate those schools, too.

I totally agree with you - but it feels like schools are the single biggest institutions with the biggest impact in the big, messy ensnarement between church and state in the UK. It’s also the bit where I think the biggest, fastest difference can be seen - because kids are naturally more accepting. My son has school friends who are Sikh and Muslim (though a definite minority) but as far as I am aware none who are Catholic. We have a large number of Catholic and CofE schools (and excellent Catholic secondaries) and the kids end up on parallel tracks. It’s just like when I was a kid - Catholics are more ‘other’ than non-Christian children because that’s how the school system sorts them.

I think we share a lot of worries - the discrimination against non Christian faith families, not just where they are able to open schools but particularly where population density or resources aren’t sufficient for them to overcome the hurdles to opening a school - particularly when the new rules for admissions in opening a school aren’t a level playing field with pre-free school faith schools (which is obviously preferable to me but reduces the incentives to open a school). And there is obviously also a rapidly growing non-faith population who are currently at significant disadvantage in the current school system.

I’m not from NI - actually Australia, where although faith schools are quasi-private they are still massively divisive, particularly in the area I grew up. I hate that my kid is growing up in that school system and only grateful that the few years around his school year are more representative of where we live than the school as a whole - but it’s still incredibly white for an outer London suburb.

@ListeningQuietly I agree with the point you raise here but I think that if we stop funding faith schools those who can will go private and further entrench division (perhaps with a proviso of funding practising adherents). Others will attend established private schools and you will still be left with the same problem a poster upthread pointed out - that EAL and SEN children become over represented in the state sector which distorts the true nature and purpose of comprehensive education.

I think we have to take a different, societal approach to this.

Religion is also really important in the teaching of English Literature, History, PSE, Politics

As is philosophy, but you never see MNers arguing that it should be a compulsory part of the school curriculum.

‘Religion is also really important in the teaching of English Literature, History, PSE, Politics and Philosophy.‘

That was what my original quote, Fanny.

@JassyRadlett

'Catholics are more ‘other’ than non-Christian children because that’s how the school system sorts them.'

Is it the school system or society? Where is that 'other' coming from? Because I think the RC contributes to this in some ways but not entirely. growing up in the UK, I took my guidance from society around me which is CofE - the RC church isnt really even that different here as it is restricted compared to in RC countries. It is an 'other' that is being created and I can't help but feel that it is because we are a challenge somehow - the number of children who do well and go on to further education has disarmed the arguments that came from the left about state school discrimination in HE - the number present in the medical and legal professions show that social mobility is possible. We arent overrepresented in the private school sector yet we do go onto HE in huge numbers.

We never get the credit or acknowledgement in society we see others getting.

girl
If you really think that parents will magically be able to find £20k a year to send their kids to fee paying schools
just so that they say the Lords prayer over lunch
you are deluded

you clearly think you know more than the Sutton Trust and the Dfe on the issues
bless

@ListeningQuietly

'girl
If you really think that parents will magically be able to find £20k a year to send their kids to fee paying schools
just so that they say the Lords prayer over lunch
you are deluded'

eh???

you clearly think you know more than the Sutton Trust and the Dfe on the issues
bless

I don't know why you have said that again. Most of my views on this are informed by DoE and Sutton Trust research. I am incredibly aware of the huge discrepancies in our society that affect childrens' attainment.

Why the patronising tone?

‘Catholics are more ‘other’ than non-Christian children because that’s how the school system sorts them.’

I find it very difficult to believe that the average person in this country views Catholic children as ‘other’ to a greater degree than they would view a Hindu child.

I disagree, I went to catholic primary and secondary school, and I want the same for my kids. I want them to be brought up like I was and actually I now choose to attend a church if england but my children go to catholic schools. I like the fact kids are taught to pray at school as part of their day. Not because I want them to be religious when they are older but because I want them to have that as something they can turn to when they are older just as I have returned to church and god.

I support the faith schools and believe it should be a parents choice how they children are educated

I hate that my kid is growing up in that school system and only grateful that the few years around his school year are more representative of where we live than the school as a whole - but it’s still incredibly white for an outer London suburb.

Do you think there might be regional differences here? Our church and the school are probably more diverse than the general area. Also the proportion of ‘catholics’ in schools in our diocese tends to be much lower than the 66% nationally. So there’s much more of a mix with children who aren’t catholic.

I do not object to faith schools per se but do object to faith being an entry criteria. What is the purpose of faith schools? Surely, it's to promote their 'faith' to all people? What's the point of prioritising entry to people who already subscribe to that faith? Surely these people take their children to church/religious institutions anyway?

They should be open to all in the fairest possible way which, as it stands is surely geographical distance to school?

Certainly in the Christian religion, spreading the 'good news' of the gospel and making converts of non believers is of fundamental importance? Isn't it why churches exist (as well as for collective worship)? In which case, church schools should perhaps be trying to encourage non-believers in? Maybe they should be actively selecting for non believers if they are to fulfil the teachings of the bible in this respect

Unfortunately, selecting for faith has become a farce in most parts of this country. I had to laugh reading one faith based secondary school's admission criteria (which had a complex and bizarre 'religion' points allocation system), which stated that attending school related activities at a church doesn't count towards your church attendance points (Ripley St Thomas; Lancaster in case of interest). That it had come to having to stipulate this due to people gaming the system surely just shows the system isn't really working?

I support the faith schools and believe it should be a parents choice how they children are educated

I think you are missing the point that a lot of parents don’t have any choice but to send their child to a faith school.

Would people object if faith schools weren't doing well? If, overall, they weren't 'outstanding'?

I find it very difficult to believe that the average person in this country views Catholic children as ‘other’ to a greater degree than they would view a Hindu child.

I’m not saying the ‘average person’, though am I? I was careful to frame it in my child’s personal experience, and not draw a wider conclusion than this is one effect I have seen in my own experience, and why I dislike the segregation in education where I live.

Do you think there might be regional differences here? Our church and the school are probably more diverse than the general area. Also the proportion of ‘catholics’ in schools in our diocese tends to be much lower than the 66% nationally. So there’s much more of a mix with children who aren’t catholic.

Almost certainly, both in the makeup of school within areas - more than half of schools in areas as different as Wigan, Westminster and Blackburn are faith schools while fewer than 10% in NE Lincolnshire and Thurrock - and of course whether those schools are oversubscribed also plays a big role - a school that isn’t fully selective (religious or purely economic) is likely to be more representative.

@RafaIsTheKingOfClay what does your 66% stat refer to?

‘Certainly in the Christian religion, spreading the 'good news' of the gospel and making converts of non believers is of fundamental importance? Isn't it why churches exist (as well as for collective worship)? In which case, church schools should perhaps be trying to encourage non-believers in? Maybe they should be actively selecting for non believers if they are to fulfil the teachings of the bible in this respect grin‘

The church is a community of Christians. If it doesn’t select itself, it doesn’t exist!

Jassy, I know you didn’t say that, but posters after you were using your specific situation as if it were a generalisation.

@endofthedays my daughter attended a non faith primary and is now in a non faith secondary. They do teach religion as a separate subject and I know how they teach about the i pact religion has on life in othe subjects like history, ?English lit and geography.

A faith school would - in my opinion- push too much into “their faith” in these lessons instead of keeping it impartial. My friend’s children attend a CoE primary, one now the connected COE secondary and the discussions about same sex marriages in PSHE were very much influenced by COE teaching instead of keeping it to the facts.

@scrambledeggs01 sorry but this can be done via a Sunday school/attending mass with parents. Teaching faith shouldn’t be part of a school day.

Brit, I went to a non faith school as did my kids.

But they were not taught merely the facts. It would be impossible to pass GCSE if you only knew the facts. DD was taught, for example, religious beliefs about homosexuality and had to answer questions on whether or not it was contrary to Muslim beliefs.

But I think you are talking about something a bit different, which is whether or not a teacher should teach children what they believe is right or wrong, and it really depends on what was said.

Factually there are no Anglican gay marriages. They are not permitted.

If the teacher says that, and explains why that is the case, and why people agree and some people disagree, all of that is useful for passing exams.

It’s the percentage of children in all state catholic schools who are catholic according to the school census.

www.brs-ccrs.org.uk/downloads/CensusDigestEngland2018.pdf

because if I needed them they would be open to me on an equal basis and not restricted on the basis of my faith or lack thereof.

Might well be restricted from you for other reasons. Not all services are open to everybody.

I support the faith schools and believe it should be a parents choice how they children are educated

Great. Where’s the choice for parents who aren’t CofE or Catholic?

The choice is to set up your own school.

The issue seems to be that not only is the state obliged to educate children, but so are parents. If you home educate it has to be to a reasonable standard.

So it’s not just a state service that people can opt to use if they feel like it. The state insists you educate your children.

So there has to be some agreement between parents and to the state as to what that education entails.

And I guess that’s why free schools have been developed, because there are many families out there who don’t find any of the current options fit with their values.

I’m not sure that it is the role of the state to start developing new kinds of school, but that doesn’t mean they shouldn’t fund them.

The choice is to set up your own school.

But that isn’t a true choice for the vast majority of parents, given the time and expertise required to get approvals for a school. Even if truly secular schools were permitted, which they are not under current laws.

A true choice doesn’t erect almost insurmountable barriers for some while providing enhanced choices for others, based on the god they pray to.

Those arguing ‘it should be a parent’s choice’ are woefully out of touch with demography and the reality of the education system to a point that is actually offensive.