White people and racism - Slightly drunk AIBU

[Keanuismine]

Hello MN! I have Name changed like a MN pro for this so no one can possibly guess my secret identity mwahahahaha

So, I have been in the pub tonight and had an experience that, together with 2 other experiences in the last month have made me think. me and my brother are very interested in your opinions.

I am a mixed race woman - heritage mum white Northern British, Dad mixed race Jamaican Rastafarian. I look white(ish), some of my 17 siblings less so. We're a mixed bunch. Anyhow, I was accused of racism tonight and my SIL (mixed race Indian/white) a month ago. SIL is married to DB who is mixed race like me. On Chinese NY I was out with my friend who is ethnically Thai (but Northern British) was accused of makign excuses for Cultural Misappropriation. We are all bewildered so I am asking MN for opinions. AIBU to say this incidents are NOT IN ANY WAY racist.

1. First in incident SIL calls her son -who is 1/2 white, 1/4 Indian. 1/4 black a cheeky little money because he kept running up to her in the park and sticking his tongue out at her (he is 3). A white man with no children with him marched over and scolded her for using a 'racist term' and advised her she was 'doing untold damage to his self esteem" and it "would be seen as racist". She said 'I'm his mum" and he replied "Are you now?" and took a photo of her before walking off. WTF!
2. Ethnically Thai friend watching the parade and the man in front said to her in a stage whisper "Look some of those people in the Lion are not even Chinese!!" she laughed and said "I reckon all of them are Mancunian to be honest mate" and he replied "you might think cultural misappropriation is acceptable but some of us are not racists" and stormed off glaring at her. WTF!
3. Tonight in the pub DB and I were drinking rum and ginger ale and having a catch up and he did a hilarious impression of our dad which was genuinely very funny (he is watching me type this!) and I joined in and was speaking patois which is my dads main language he speaks - and will only speak in his old age, and we all grew up in Jamaica so in many ways its our first language and its so fun to speak and....... Anyway, after a couple of minutes DB went to the bar and a woman sat next to me (we were sharing a table as it was so busy), told me that DB wouldn't appreciate my behaviour and I was being racist by imitating him. I said "he's my brother" and she replied "Hmmm you need to think" and get up and left. WTF? My DB and I were flabbergasted.

So, are we bigots? Why are white people suddenly telling us we are racists? Wtf MN? AIBU to say this is crazy.

We have rum, ginger beer and are sat awaiting your response.

DB wants me to add Jah bless here but I am chickening out

It’s cos you look white OP - You wouldn’t get the comments if you looked more ‘mixed’ probably. People make assumptions.

Interestingly I watched a programme on TV a while back about racism, there were 2 twins, guys, mother was black mixed race, father white so each twin (non identical) was quarter black. One looked black mixed race the spit of his mother, the other twin looked more like Lawrence Fox there’s no way you’d ever think his mother was black. Out of the 2 twins, the ‘white’ chap struggles more with identity. The black looking twin experienced some obvious racism, but the white looking twin heard lots of subtle racism or comments when people had no idea he was part black. So he saw a lot of people’s true thoughts, which they’d hide in front of his brother. So he felt more hurt in some ways.

Race is a made up social construct in my opinion. What tick box should those twins put down, white or mixed race, or black - is it how they look, their skin tone, their mothers ?, both twins have the same heritage but look different.

WhereShallWeMoveTo - I could kiss you. I think we really need to move towards distinguishing between normal human behaviour and racism. There is a difference between the normal discomforts, tensions and processes of mixing unfamiliar people together and capital R racism. I personally feel in ignoring or demonising the discussion of the former we've fostered a culture where far right groups can seem like the only voice talking to people finding themselves in the discomfort of the latter.

in the former even!!!

I'll be clearer. People who experienced discomfort (as any human of any tribe does) with rapid changes to their community and new people who are 'different' or 'other' (be that by race, religion, culture, ways of using housing etc) become more prey to the far right in a cultural context where they're not allowed to discuss or acknowledge the difficulties they're feeling/facing without being immediately slammed as racist.

If a largely hindu indian area faced a sudden influx of somalian immigrants there would be struggles, a largely white scottish area faced with a sudden eastern european immigration etc. These aren't 'racial' issues - they're human issues, community issues, cohesion issues etc.

What I meant to say was that by stifling discussion and exploration of feelings and concerns arising from immigration and labeling it as capital R racist to even acknowledge the challenges some people were more inclined to listen to the far right as the only voice speaking about it.

I wish we were all more grown up and treated as such

"Can I ask, though, if it had been white people calling a BAME child a monkey, or taking the piss out of patois, would you think that was racist?"
No. All children of any race, creed, religion can be a cheeky monkey. Its referring to the behaviour for goodness sake.
Lots of people take the piss out of lots of accents. Scottish, Irish, French, Welsh, German....all accents can be quite amusing. Doesnt mean its racist to do so.

I come from Africa (born and bred)

Monkeys ARE cheeky. They watch you, invade your house, steal your stuff, raid your outdoor eating.

then, when you chase them, they bang their front paws down on the branch and show you their blue eyelids. You don't have to speak monkey to know that is "FU!".

That just happens to be a fact.

Push back at the woke virtue signallers, OP They need to shrivel to permanent silence.

Millions of white kids have grown up being called a cheeky monkey.

All sounds like virtue signalling to me OP. I'd ignore it.

Nothing with wrong with telling a kid they're being a little monkey.
Nothing wrong with taking off your own father's accent and using your own creole!
Nothing wrong with saying that people who live in Manchester are likely to be from there (surely the opposite is racist).

if it had been white people calling a BAME child a monkey, or taking the piss out of patois, would you think that was racist

no because just because someone looks white doesn't mean that they're not mixed race. It obviously depends on the context but I don't think most people associate cheeky monkeys with black people, stupid football supporters aside. If of course someone displays other signs of racism they may mean it in a racist way. You can generally tell.

ps we're all monkeys really

YANBU and those examples you gave, OP, are all absurdly cray-cray people. I am also mixed heritage. (I have dutifully switched to saying mixed heritage as I apparently should not say mixed race these days.) No one gets to be offended on my behalf - that is appropriation. I am particularly cross about the bloke who told off your Thai friend. I'm mixed Chinese and I'm 100% happy for anyone to celebrate CNY. You and your friends are not racist. Don't doubt yourself. x

@whereshallwemoveto I was born in the 70s, so I do know what you mean. I grew up in Birmingham, so not like I was isolated from the racism of the 80s. And I did think things had improved over the last couple of decades. But with the rise of the new right, the mainstream political and media agenda of intolerance, things have shifted. As a white woman, I've been there when other white people have said things that people wouldn't have dared to say 20 years ago, because it was so unacceptable. We've seen an increase in hate crime assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/839172/hate-crime-1819-hosb2419.pdf. Perhaps things are better than they were in the 70s, but there's been a shift in the last 5 years. Racism has not been stamped out.

A lot of effort in this thread going into chastising woke people.
Rather be woke than casually racist.

If i were sat next to white presenting people doing a Jamaican accent or with locs in hair i wouldnt say anything but i would certainly think what a twat.

I wouldnt say anything incase they were only white presenting!

If i were sat next to white presenting people doing a Jamaican accent or with locs in hair i wouldnt say anything but i would certainly think what a twat.

What even if they were born & raised in Jamaica?

That's part of the problem, KaliforniaDreamz. When you're mixed heritage, a lot of your life is how much you "pass" for white. It's a standard by which you are judged.

If they looked white, yes.
But then i wouldn't know where they were raised. (I do realise white people exist in Jamaica and have accents.)

laudete yes i understand and I am not meaning to infer a culture on someone but i couldnt ignore a situation that looked racist.

My OH calls them the Billy Cotton Brigade, Wokey, Wokey. Ask your grandparents or even great grandparents about that!

This thread is bollocks

Sure you're one of 18 because your dad is Jamaican.

There are plenty of white people in the Caribbean whose families have been there for a couple of centuries so naturally speak with their country's accent and patois. I was at school with someone whose family were descended from the original Spanish in Jamaica and she speaks with a Jamaican accent. Look also at the history of the Redlegs in the Caribbean. Just because someone is white, their speech etc is not necessarily cultural appropriation, racist etc.

I'm a Londoner most of my friends including myself & DH have at least one parent who is an immigrant with lots of us having mixed heritage.

Too many people want to put others into boxes simply based on what they look like or how dark there skin tone is.

My friend has a Jamaican mother & Irish father. He looks white & has blue eyes (a lot of people don't believe he has a black mother). He grew up in Jamaica & still has a twang.

As someone with an accent I find it very irritating to hear my accent or a version thereof played with by people who think it's funny. I don't understand why people get a laugh from mimicking accents. And I get this from loved ones. Still irritating even from loved ones. I am used to it now but I guess it makes me self-conscious.

On subject of race I heard this chap speak on a podcast recently and he made me think. He is American so different experience to UK but lots of what he said resonated. I have biracial kids who are very pale. I am white.

www.nytimes.com/2019/10/14/books/review/self-portrait-in-black-and-white-thomas-chatterton-williams.html

Although many will try to deny it, monkey is a term many non black will use to insult black people. I’m 31 years old. Black. Raised in Portugal but lived in London’s since 16.
I guess context is everything.
If a white person referred to a black child as money, many people would gasp( remember the H and M advert).
I guess this is why some your SL “got told off” by the white guy.

I have a mixed race nephew. My DD is white. When we go out and maybe get in small chit chat they seem to get really awkward when they see he's mixed race.

I know it sounds paranoid. But they will ignore my DD and overly make the effort with him as if to prove they aren't racist lol.

The HV come to visit me and my DD just a routine check, she also was HV for my sister. My sister and nephew were there. She turned round and says "aww he's so beautiful now his skin has gone lighter" (his skin has gone darker so not sure how she came up with that). I was gobsmacked.

Oh forgot to say.
In Portugal, this is still the preferred term to use to insult a black person.
It’s sad really.

I use the term cheeky monkey and couldn't give a fuck. I'm mixed race, look mostly white British.
Monkeys are cheeky, they aren't mixed race humans.
Children are cheeky, mixed race or not.
I'd have punched the bloody racist man.