To expect a 4 year old to know right from wrong?

[Bubbaloo]

I went over to a friend the other week with both my ds's,who are 26 months and 4 months old.She also has 2 boys-a nearly 2 year old and a nearly 4 year old and both her boys drove me mad from the moment we arrived.Ds2 was asleep in his car seat but they wouldn't leave him alone and were prodding and poking him so much that they scratched his face.After a few minutes they woke him up and we had screaming for about 40 minutes.I explained he was trying to sleep,but they took no notice and were even climbing over me to get to ds2 when I took him out of his carrier.Anyway,the boys eventually went and played in the garden and ds2 went to sleep again.After an hour or so my friend did us some lunch.Beforehand her eldest boy must've asked me 5 times if ds2 was going to have lunch with them and I explained that he had no teeth,was still a baby at 4 months old and that he only drank milk.He seemed to understand.While the boys were eating their lunch and ds2 was asleep I went into the kitchen to get my coffee and within about 2 minutes he was screaming.I went back into the living room to find her eldest son bent over ds2's car seat and I couldn't believe what I saw-ds2 had 2 large chunks of cheese and bread shoved in his mouth and bread all over his top.I was absolutely livid and told my friends boy off,telling him that it was naughty aswell as dangerous and that the baby could've choked.I was even more annoyed due to the fact I had explained to him earlier that he only has milk.After about another 20 mins ds1 was getting tired so I made my excuses and left...pronto.
My friend has since emailed me but I haven't replied yet as I'm still really wound up.
AIBU to expect her son to know right from wrong,when it's already been explained to him?

[aloha]

and stop blaming your friend! That's really, really unfair.

[pagwatch]

My DS1 was 3 years and 4 months when DS2 was born and was fantastic with the baby BUT never ever would I have left him alone because he always wanted to 'help' .
A smaller child is often simply not interested but as kids get bigger they start to regard growing up and being a help as really important. You are assuming that an older child will become more responsible when the reality is that they just want to be more responsible - but have no idea. Trust me. When your kids get a little older you will realise that the phrase "can I help mummy" is designed to instill fear.
Feeding a baby would seem very grown up and responsible to that age group. My son helped with the washing once .... !! dear god the mess!
YABU. It is not about right and wrong. And if your children grow up to be nice and helpful kids then stuff like this will happen.
An adult who leaves a baby unattended with an under 5 to fetch their coffee is the one who has an issue with right and wrong I'm afraid.
Talk to your friend and take a deep breath and prepare to look back on this as a good learning curve for when your threenagers start helping you!

[Bubbaloo]

Well,I will just have to agree to disagree with most of you.I have other friends with older children and they to have said their 3.11 year old would not have acted in the way he did.I certainly don't expect the 1.11 year old to understand to leave the baby alone,but IMO I would expect better behaviour from the older one.
Thanks for your comments although I'm sure there's also plenty of people on here who DO agree with me but just haven't posted their opinion.

[HorseyWoman]

Yeh but other people WOULD say 'oh Johnnie would NEVER do something so terrible as to try to nourish another child', wouldn't they?

[EscapeFrom]

yes YABU to the OP. You should not have left a baby alone with a four year old, what were you thinking?

You have completely over reacted and by the time your son is four, you will feel guilty as Hell for the way you treated a little boy this afternoon - a little boy who just wanted to share with his new friend.

[juuule]

The only problem, though, with you not accepting that you were responsible for the food being fed your baby due to lack of supervision is that you don't seem to have learned anything from the incident. As others have said, you just can't leave a 4m old alone with toddlers. It's too risky. You can't just say that they should know better. Your baby is too precious to risk.
These things do happen. Most parents have had a heart stopping moment (or two). But most people I know would think along the lines of "I look out for that next time". Not consider it the fault of the toddlers or even the toddler's parent. At the end of the day you are the one looking out for your baby.

[Bubbaloo]

I doubt it very much.

[juuule]

And again as others have said the little boy was only sharing his goodies in his eyes.

[Bubbaloo]

That was to Escapefrom's post

[EscapeFrom]

Yes, see Bubbaloo, that's why this topic is redundant. People hear what they want to hear. The majority of the posters have told you you have been completely unreasonable, but you are hearing the Silent Agreements, Who Dare Not Post.

This is Mumsnet. They would dare if they existed.

[HorseyWoman]

I've nannied for children of all ages, and quite honestly, if you expect your child to never ever do something like this, which, at the end of the day, is NOT naughty or nasty or stupid (done by a 3 year old and you had not explained why it was important not to feed baby), then you are deluded!

And if you leave a baby alone in a room where there are three other toddlers, what makes you think you are so high and mighty as to bring up a super-angelic child who never does anything 'wrong'?

All children do 'wrong', whether it be contrived or something innocent and the child thinks they are helping. It is not a reason to fall out with their parents or to lose it with the child. Children have to have things explained to them, otherwise they don't learn the lessons that seem like instinct to most adults (like not feeding a baby solids).

[cluelessnchaos]

I oncce left ds at 6 weeks alone (for 1 min) with dd2 aged 3 1/2 at the time, while I went to get him a change of clothes, when I came down he was face down in his chair in a lot of distress and she looked terrified, , managed not to gasp and scream , but just picked him up and asked her not to do it again, does sound like the boys are wild, only from the bit about them climbing over you.

[Bubbaloo]

Yes but apart from feeding the baby,I really do think that's it's unacceptable behaviour for a 3.11 year old to be constantly prodding,poking and climbing all over us from the moment we arrived.I couldnt even put ds2 on the sofa or the floor as he just wouldn't leave him alone.My eldest is certainly not perfect and being 2 is much younger,but there is no way he will behave like that when he is the same age.

[Bubbaloo]

I did explain why he shouldn't feed the baby and told him he could choke on the food.

[aloha]

My dd is two and a half, my ds is nearly six. I'd probably leave them for a few minute with a baby, but only my own (imaginary) baby - not someone else's, in case they decided to do him a good turn, and got shouted at! They weren't attacking your baby with knives ffs! Just giving him something to eat.

[juuule]

"but there is no way he will behave like that when he is the same age." ROFL. Famous last words.
Be careful what you say - these things have a habit of coming back to bite you.

[cluelessnchaos]

famous last words

[aloha]

Why are you so hostile to this little three year old? I just don't get it.
And to extend that hostility to your 'friend' is really bizarre. So the boys were a bit lively and extremely interested in your baby. It's not exactly a crime.

[HorseyWoman]

Could it not be that they are trying to get your attention, liked you, wanted affection/play, were doing what all children do? And children like babies. My last little girl LOVED babies and would do anything to touch them. We were at music class once and she was sat on my knee in the circle. She spotted the baby with another girl's mum and stood up, moved next to the next person; she kept doing that til she got to the baby, and then proceeded to wiggle the baby's hand, play peekaboo - she was 3!

I think you are being ridiculous expecting children not to behave like children. That is active, jumping around, shouting, being burly and boisterous, inquisitive...

[aloha]

I feel really sorry for your friend tbh.

[HorseyWoman]

So do I aloha. She wasn't the one that left her baby with someone else's two boisterous children!

[Kaz33]

The kids were bored. They had been left to amuse themselves for most of the morning in their own home/garden where there was nothing new to distract them.

I have two boys now 6 and 4, but they were probably at their hardest to deal with when 4 and 2. My kids can be a bit wild and I have had people around who have a bit prudish about their behaviour. You probably wouldn't last long in my household.

[Wilkie]

Bubaloo - I don't think YABU. I would personally expect a nearly 4 year old to know better, particularly when told. Ihave three friends with kids of a similar age and they simply wouldn't paw my DS or try to feed him in this way.

That said, I agree with Horsey that once you had seen them prodding DS, maybe leaving him alone with him wasn't the best idea in the world.

Don't blow your mate out over it though, just avoid the situation next time.

[Bubbaloo]

Well then just count yourself lucky your not my friend!

I certainly don't expect children not to be children.My 2 year old is very lively but he doesn't prod and poke continuosly and climb over everyone that comes through the door.

[Bubbaloo]

Thanks Wilkie.

No,I won't blow my friend over it but I'll just make sure the 3.11 year old isn't around when I see her next.