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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

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Original poster

To expect a 4 year old to know right from wrong?

226 replies

Bubbaloo · 01/09/2007 22:02

I went over to a friend the other week with both my ds's,who are 26 months and 4 months old.She also has 2 boys-a nearly 2 year old and a nearly 4 year old and both her boys drove me mad from the moment we arrived.Ds2 was asleep in his car seat but they wouldn't leave him alone and were prodding and poking him so much that they scratched his face.After a few minutes they woke him up and we had screaming for about 40 minutes.I explained he was trying to sleep,but they took no notice and were even climbing over me to get to ds2 when I took him out of his carrier.Anyway,the boys eventually went and played in the garden and ds2 went to sleep again.After an hour or so my friend did us some lunch.Beforehand her eldest boy must've asked me 5 times if ds2 was going to have lunch with them and I explained that he had no teeth,was still a baby at 4 months old and that he only drank milk.He seemed to understand.While the boys were eating their lunch and ds2 was asleep I went into the kitchen to get my coffee and within about 2 minutes he was screaming.I went back into the living room to find her eldest son bent over ds2's car seat and I couldn't believe what I saw-ds2 had 2 large chunks of cheese and bread shoved in his mouth and bread all over his top.I was absolutely livid and told my friends boy off,telling him that it was naughty aswell as dangerous and that the baby could've choked.I was even more annoyed due to the fact I had explained to him earlier that he only has milk.After about another 20 mins ds1 was getting tired so I made my excuses and left...pronto.
My friend has since emailed me but I haven't replied yet as I'm still really wound up.
AIBU to expect her son to know right from wrong,when it's already been explained to him?

OP posts:

twentypence · 01/09/2007 23:18

Get a sling or take a travel cot, and apologise for shouting at her children, on the phone not by email.

I know you had explained it 5 times, but nearly 4 year olds are really great at asking the same question over and over just to get your attention - they don't actually listen to the answer or make any deep connections.

It was a nasty shock, but not the fault of the children.

handlemecarefully · 01/09/2007 23:30

Actually - as a parent of a 5 yr old and a 3yr old (so I have the rising 4 credentials , I would say that bubbaloo's friends sounds lax and ineffectual.

I would be mortified if my children were prodding and poking a baby - it's quite plausible that through curiousity they might start doing this.... but you can be rest assured that they would stop pretty damn smartish after a few choice words...

Desiderata · 01/09/2007 23:49

A few choice words from the mother, perhaps ..

but really, a four month old baby is not made of glass. I'm sure it can survive an attempt at a few lumps of cheese and a bread crumb

Sorry, but I object to the wording of the OP, which suggests that a three year old has a grasp on adult matters.

Christie · 01/09/2007 23:57

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Desiderata · 02/09/2007 00:04

That's exactly my point, Christie. I would have thought it cute, but I guess we all parent in different ways.

gess · 02/09/2007 11:09

pmsl christie. I've stopped taking ds1 to spa showrooms as he keeps pulling off his shoes and socks and trying to climb in

motherinferior · 02/09/2007 11:26

Do you mean 'right and wrong' or 'doing as they've been asked/told? My four year old daughter doesn't have a concept of right and wrong. She's bright, and fairly well-behaved, as it happens: but right and wrong, no.

Hulababy · 02/09/2007 11:35

I think you are asking too much of a one year old and a three year old TBH. Just because some three year olds might understand doesn't mean all will. At this young age the difference between what one knows/understands and another can be massive, like with all the early development steps.

Simple solution is you don't leave a baby with toddlers.

Toddlers are often very curious about new babies. They will want to look and touch. That is natural and age appropriate behvaiour.

Just because you tell them something once doesn't mean they will remember later. At this age the message has to be reinforced regularly over time for them to remember - hence why your own 1 year old can probably remember as he has had 4 months of being reminded.

IME what a 3/4 year old will do compared to a 1 year old is massive. 3 year old is much more likely to act on inquisitiveness.

Sorry, YABU. You need to just relax a bit and take a step back. Yes it wasn't pleasant for your baby but no real harm was done. Little boy was only trying to feed the baby - at 3yo he doesn't really understand why a 4mo can't have real food just yet.

Peachy · 02/09/2007 11:38

Only read OP but sorry, I think your child is your responsibility and the idea of a 3 year old even slightly comprehending 'right from wrong' in terms of this sort of thing are frankly amazing! And a three year old won't go from a jump about only having milk to not having cheese- they can't often process that much.

I'd have e-mailed you too, to say don't you leave your child unattanended with my toddler and then yell at them!

Hulababy · 02/09/2007 12:04

I actually think it a little telling in that you describe your own child in temrs of months - 26 months, i.e. over two year, compared with describing the other younger child as nearly too, rather than 22 or 23 months old.

mummymagic · 02/09/2007 12:25

Hmm... well, whilst I agree that children should be supervised, I think a 4 year old can be expected not to keep poking a baby!

Tbh I don't think you are being unreasonable to expect him not to be violent with your baby (although I do think that it might be that he wasn't meaning to be so violent with the feeding). Although if he had understood that baby did not need any food and then tried anyway, that's not really on. I would expect that he would stop if the baby cried.

IMO 4 year olds are just beginning to make their own decisions on right and wrong but can follow instructions. FGS even my 16mth old can follow instructions.

juuule · 02/09/2007 12:49

1yo and a 3yo. Hmmm. Unsupervised. Left with a 2yo and 4mo. You were asking for trouble. Nobody's fault but your own, I'd say. In fact, you and your friend were a bit dozy to not have expected that there might possibly have been some unwanted behaviour.
If her dss kept poking your ds2, why didn't you move him out of their reach? Or at least keep him close by you so you could fend off /supervise their interest. You or your friend should have been a bit firmer with them to stop them climbing all over you after you had taken ds2 out of his carrier.
So, yes, YABU imo. Not necessarily the children's fault, more like lack of supervision.

Original poster

Bubbaloo · 02/09/2007 13:10

We were in the same room as the children all the time,until my friend went into the kitchen to make lunch.I stayed in the living room with the boys and when my coffee was ready I went next door to the kitchen to collect it and bring it back.Maybe next time I go to pick up a coffee from the room next door,I'll wake the baby up and take him with me and as for shouting at him,it was hardly bellowing and was a gut reaction,walking into a room.Perhaps if my friend had more control over her eldest and had told him off herself,I wouldn't have had to.I was certainly not going to say nothing but like someone else said,we parent differently .

OP posts:

haychee · 02/09/2007 13:21

I would of told him off too! Probobly a tame effort rather than a strict telling off that i would of given it had been my own child.

I know 2boys - who sound just like these 2 - and i dread visiting them because its always trouble. So my visits are infrequent and relatively short.

Original poster

Bubbaloo · 02/09/2007 13:24

Well,I'm glad I'm not the only one.I didn't scream,I just told him it was naughty and that he could've choked.
I won't be going round there again in a hurray.

OP posts:

juuule · 02/09/2007 14:05

If the 4mo was asleep in the carseat, then I would have picked up the carseat and gone into the kitchen. More likely, I would have suggested that your friend brought the lunches/drinks through while I kept an eye on the children. Knowing how lively the boys were, I wouldn't have left the baby alone, just in case.
As for your friend telling her eldest off, I'd have asked her to pull them off when they were climbing all over you and the baby. And later on, didn't she say anything at all about her ds feeding your ds2?

startouchedtrinity · 02/09/2007 14:19

Bubbaloo, whilst I don't agree this is an issue of knowing right from wrong, I think it does show that you can't rely on other parents to supervise their children as well as you may like. FWIW I hate the children at preschool shoving their faces into ds' when I go to collect dd2. But then I see other parents who are chilled about it, so obviously people have different ideas as to what is okay.

Original poster

Bubbaloo · 02/09/2007 16:08

I think it just wound me up more,the fact that my friend didn't seem that bothered by it.I guess we all have different ideas and do things differently-suppose it would be boring if we were all the same.
Next time I see I think I'll wait til her eldest is at nursery.

OP posts:

HorseyWoman · 02/09/2007 17:05

I think you are being unreasonable. If you shouted at my child for that I would be mad. If he had been hitting, biting or scratching him, swinging him round his head by his leg, I might shout. But trying to feed the baby was not a nasty act, nor was it a naughty act; it was something innocent that they saw no wrong in, aside from the fact you had told them not to.

IME as a nanny, you can't just say no to a child; you have to explain why things are right or wrong/why you want something done/not done.

HorseyWoman · 02/09/2007 17:06

Also, don't leave your baby alone with other children, then this issue won't arise. After the poking/prodding/scratching, I'd have cottoned on to the children's inquisitive nature and not left them alone with the baby.

HorseyWoman · 02/09/2007 17:07

And, no, next time either get your friend to bring it to you or get her to watch them while you collect it.

HonoriaGlossop · 02/09/2007 17:24

exactly horsewoman. I just don't see how you can direct ire at 1 and 3 year olds for what happened; you need to be superivising your tiny baby when other kids are around, and yes, that even means for two minutes!

Christie · 02/09/2007 17:34

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

aloha · 02/09/2007 17:43

Hmmm.....your child is just a baby of '26months'....but her child is a grown up 'nearly two'. You have chosen to make your children sound younger (and more innocent?) and her's older - 'nearlyu two and nearly four' (and more culpable?).
I would have been pretty pissed off if you'd left your baby unattended then shouted at my children tbh.
This child was only THREE. Of course he doesn't know 'right from wrong' and of course he isn't capable of understanding that feeding a baby is 'wrong'.

aloha · 02/09/2007 17:44

aargh - rogue apostrophe!

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