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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Original poster

To expect a 4 year old to know right from wrong?

226 replies

Bubbaloo · 01/09/2007 22:02

I went over to a friend the other week with both my ds's,who are 26 months and 4 months old.She also has 2 boys-a nearly 2 year old and a nearly 4 year old and both her boys drove me mad from the moment we arrived.Ds2 was asleep in his car seat but they wouldn't leave him alone and were prodding and poking him so much that they scratched his face.After a few minutes they woke him up and we had screaming for about 40 minutes.I explained he was trying to sleep,but they took no notice and were even climbing over me to get to ds2 when I took him out of his carrier.Anyway,the boys eventually went and played in the garden and ds2 went to sleep again.After an hour or so my friend did us some lunch.Beforehand her eldest boy must've asked me 5 times if ds2 was going to have lunch with them and I explained that he had no teeth,was still a baby at 4 months old and that he only drank milk.He seemed to understand.While the boys were eating their lunch and ds2 was asleep I went into the kitchen to get my coffee and within about 2 minutes he was screaming.I went back into the living room to find her eldest son bent over ds2's car seat and I couldn't believe what I saw-ds2 had 2 large chunks of cheese and bread shoved in his mouth and bread all over his top.I was absolutely livid and told my friends boy off,telling him that it was naughty aswell as dangerous and that the baby could've choked.I was even more annoyed due to the fact I had explained to him earlier that he only has milk.After about another 20 mins ds1 was getting tired so I made my excuses and left...pronto.
My friend has since emailed me but I haven't replied yet as I'm still really wound up.
AIBU to expect her son to know right from wrong,when it's already been explained to him?

OP posts:
pagwatch · 02/09/2007 19:44

UMmm
you didn't actually answer my question - which is fine if you don't want to. I asked if you really did think the child was being deliberately bad rather than being developmentally unable to do as instructed ?

Where I kind of don't understand is that you say that you were so annoyed with this boy because he had not been listening earlier and clambering to get at your babe - so babe was clearly something he wanted to get his hands on to play with - yet you felt comfortable enough to leave him even for a short while.
I think your upset and fright has just left you a bit emotional - which is understandable. But you might want to pull back on regarding this little boy as anything too bad. I think he just need to get a little bit older when they can follow instructions when you are in the room and not.
And as others have said be careful about the nevers. The best behaved children are capeable of the worst judgements - at this age they are learning by mistakes and impulse control is barely on their radar.
If the kid is a handful by all means avoid him - but don't demonise him. Children getting those kind of labels can be quite damaged by it as everyone looks for them to be 'bad'.

Mhamai · 02/09/2007 19:46

Two minutes to fetch a coffee from her counter, does she live in a mansion? Sorry bad joke but couldn't resist.

Original poster
Bubbaloo · 02/09/2007 19:54

Pagwatch-my friends boy is actually very bright and I would say he's even quite advanced for his age,in many ways.He is also usually well behaved when we go out,so maybe he was just playing up as we were over at his house,but seeing as he normally isn't like this,I would've expected my friend to have said something to him when he first starting pestering us.

OP posts:
Original poster
Bubbaloo · 02/09/2007 19:55

Mhami-I didn't use a stopwatch.It was probably even less than 2 mins.

OP posts:
mumtoone · 02/09/2007 20:42

My ds is nearly 4 and I have a 2 month old. He still pokes her endlessly despite being told soooo many times not to do it. My ds pokes my dd because he is desperate for her to play with him. He isn't trying to hurt her its just she hates it and it invariably results in crying. He's not tried putting food in her mouth but he has put things over her mouth which is even worse. In my experience you can't trust children of this age with babies I'm afraid.

kindersurprise · 02/09/2007 20:43

I am going to go against the general opinion here and say that I don't think that the OP is being unreasonable.

I would expect an almost 4 year old to leave the baby alone when told too. My DS is 3 and if he behaved like that he would be told off. I am surprised your friend did not say anything.

As to the feeding of the baby, that is more a child's inquisitive mind, not being deliberately naughty. You were perhaps a bit lax in leaving the children alone, especially when the older boy had been pestering your DS.

If my child were to behave like that I would not be upset at my friend for telling him off, I would be upset and annoyed at my child.

Have you answered your friend yet?

inamuckingfuddle · 02/09/2007 20:50

my DTs are 3.8 and would stop pestering a baby if asked - I know because I recently took them to visit a friend with a small baby, 8-10 weeks old or so and they were fascinated by what she would be able to eat, what she could do etc and I had to explain it to them several times before they really understood - but we did this in the car on the way so they were prepared for it. I don't think you are unreasonable in expecting a child that age to understand but I do think your reaction was a bit OTT and lacked understanding from the child's perspective. The language of the OP overshadowed the original question of the title and I think this has prompted the response you've had

haychee · 02/09/2007 21:00

Hindsight is a wonderful thing! Im sure you all realise that she would do things differently "next time", take the car seat throught to the other room or ask her friend to bring the drinks through etc. Plainly obvious imo.

I would have reacted the same. How will this child know it is wrong, how will he learn not to do it again??? If she does not tell him off, it sounds like the mother of this child cant do the job and she has had to step in because his behaviour has directly affected her/her child. Perfectly acceptable to me. I would welcome it if it were my child that had stuffed a babys mouth of food like that - i would not feel offended or upset by the babys mother telling off my child at all!

bojangles · 02/09/2007 21:36

Yes YABU - my DD 3yrs 7mths - is usually pretty well behaved but she can do some shockingly silly things. DS is 15 months now and I do pop out of the room to fetch things etc - frequently I return to find him crying because she snatches his toy, pushes him over or shouts in his face. She cannot resist roaring loudly at him if she is 'lucky' enough to find him unattended and asleep.

I spend a lot of time with friends and their children - all aged under 4 and they all have their off days when they seem to have the 'devil' in them. My DS regularly seems to get pushed around by the older lot - it isn't ok but there is no need to over react -I am happy to tell other peolpe's children not to push/ hit etc but I wouldn't shout or tell them they were being naughty.

Please don't label this little boy - you said yourself that he is normally well behaved and I would put it down to a 'bad' day - imagine how your friend would feel if she were on Mumsnet reading the way you have talked about her little boys.

I think you should sleep on it and try and think how you would feel if the roles had been reversed. Also, please try and learn never to turn you back or accept that if you do all children are prone to do unpredicatable things!

divastrop · 02/09/2007 21:42

am PMSL at this thread thinking about how angelic my ds2 was untill just after the age of 2

ds2 is 4.1,and a bit behind with language due to having hearing problems for 2 years(now sorted).i'm sure he understands everything i tell him,but whether he listens is another matter.

i do think your friend should have told them to stop climding all over you,i would have done if it were my 4 year old and toddler,but if i had been at a friends house with my 5 month old and her children wanted to play with her,i would have put her on the floor and let them play for a while,keeping a very close eye on them.then the novelty would probably have worn off in 5 minutes.

as for saying your friend should be able to control her ds .how old are you,79?

my ds2 fed dd3 a hobnob when she was 9 weeks old.i had only turned my back for 2 seconds to put something in the bin!and he should have known better,after i explained to him about not feeding babies when he fed an 11week old dd2 a bit of ham.maybe i just cant control him

what gets me though,is there are many threads on here about peoples dh/dp's not listening to them,bahaving badly etc.if grown men dont listen or know right from wrong,how can you expect a 4 year old to??

haychee · 02/09/2007 21:51

I dont think a 4yr old should be expected to know not to feed the baby like that. But it sounds like they should have been told from the start to calm down or expect to face consequences of some kind. It doesnt sound like the mother had any control at all!

handlemecarefully · 02/09/2007 23:02

God what planet are some of you on?

Berating the OP and telling her she should feel guilty as Hell for the way she treated a little boy ...

Christ on a bike - She "told her friends boy off"..."telling him it was naughty as well as dangerous"

wheres the big deal? Perhaps Bubbaloo can clarify, but I very much doubt she screamed at him like a banshee, made him walk over hot coals or otherwise terrorised him. She merely ticked him off. I can't abide the attitude that only parents can admonish their children - particularly since some parents are so laissez faire it could make you weep.

I think a firm (but certainly not heavy handed) telling off is entirely appropriate for the lttle boy. He wasn't doing anything dreadful or awful, but he does need to understand that he shouldn't feed the baby.

Also giving the OP grief for leaving her baby for a minute to fetch her coffee....- that's ridiculous. I do not believe for one single second that everybody who has seized on this point would carry their 4 month old baby everywhere with them (to the loo, to fetch a coffee, to answer the door) rather than leave them momentarily alone in a room with a toddler. Sorry but that's bullshit

(an unusually aggressive hmc - sorry folks for any offence caused , and I'll try to get back to normal soon, but sheesh...!)

handlemecarefully · 02/09/2007 23:09

Ah I feel better for that.

LittleBella · 02/09/2007 23:16

hmc people aren't pissed off with her for telling the kid off.

They're pissed off with her for framing the question in terms of morality. "Right / Wrong" in this context, is just meaningless. And the OP hasn't acknowledged that that is the case.

handlemecarefully · 02/09/2007 23:24

But LittleBella I've read the whole thread and it really doesn't come across that way. The OP has been accused of being vitriolic toward the boy and hateing him etc (I will find the quotes if needs be but don't wish to single posters out)

I personally feel that some of the reactions on this thread (but by no means all) have been disproportionate, and that the OP has received a lot of mean spirited stick.

Desiderata · 02/09/2007 23:31

Bubbaloo started an AIBU thread. She didn't have to. She could have kept the incident to herself.

But she decided to share. That 75% to 80% of the replies think that she is being unreasonable doesn't seem to hold much weight, of course.

Bub thinks that she is being reasonable in shouting at a pre-schooler and in avoiding emails from her friend.

So, we are at an impasse. I think that's called stalemate

LittleBella · 02/09/2007 23:37

I think the responses might be disproportionate because the OP isn't acknowledging that most people disagree with her, tbh.

Her explanation isn't that she might be wrong, but that most people are too scared to post to agree with her. LOL. Well, I find it funny, but many people find that irritating...

handlemecarefully · 02/09/2007 23:37

Des - it's all fine and dandy for people to disagree with her, absolutely.... (although some posters did go too far)

I was merely batting for the minority side in a frank and forthright way

handlemecarefully · 02/09/2007 23:38

Yes perhaps LittleBella - these things do escalate

MrsMarvel · 02/09/2007 23:51

So now I've spent the minutes reading the thread I have to put in my tuppenceworth. I think that Bubbaloo was being a bit jumpy and rather than finding a constructive way of dealing with the situation, has gone away disliking a pre-schooler and potentially losing a friend.

Desiderata · 02/09/2007 23:58

.... and I shall raise you two, and make it fourpence

divorcee · 03/09/2007 00:01

Totally in the minority but I think an almost four year old should be able to stop when told

A 2 year old, no but even a 3 year old should understand you don't stuff food into anyone??

I must be of a different generation (41?) but if any of mine acted in this manner they would have been removed and told stop! And I would be happy for a friend to do the same

Are 4 year olds today that babyish?? Have things changed that much?

MrsMarvel · 03/09/2007 00:23

That's more than I can afford. I'll pass.

Desiderata · 03/09/2007 00:25

Yes

That three year old's a right little bastard, isn't he? And so's his mother.

Niecie · 03/09/2007 02:25

I don't think the op is being totally unreasonable. My DS2 is 3.11 and I would have expected him not to crawl all over somebody if he had been told not too and I certainly would have had something to say if he had continued after he had been told not to. I would have also made sure that if he was doing that to a friend that the baby wasn't left alone as I wouldn't trust my DS to behave let alone expect my friend to trust him. To be honest I don't think my DS would have carried on behaving badly once he was told. Not because he is a paragon of virtue, far from it, but because he would have kept his distance from people he didn't know that well if told to back off.

No Bubbaloo shouldn't have left the baby alone but I also think it is not unreasonable to assume that the child who was sitting at the table eating his lunch would stay there and wasn't going to cross the room to push food into a baby's mouth in less than the 2 minutes she was out of the room. I am wondering if he was waiting for her to get out the way? If he was, then he probably understood that it was wrong to feed the baby. If he didn't understand, he wouldn't have been bothered whether the baby's mother was in the room or not especially as he hadn't listened when told to leave the baby alone before.

As for telling the child off, I am sure that it was just fright and that she wasn't snarling at him with gritted teeth. Children need to know what they are doing wrong when they do it. The mother should have backed her up more.

Yes the op was had inflammatory wording but I think most of that would have been shock.