To think it's actually hard for some people not to have an affair?

[swimmingpoolshower]

I promise this is not relating to a personal experience, just from conversations with friends who have either cheated or whose partners have had affairs.
We're always telling people that they should leave their significant others before having any sort of connection with another person, including what is now termed 'emotional affairs.' Most people I know who have cheated weren't looking to cheat and only doubted their relationship when they met the other person. Therefore the timeline must be:
1.) meet someone
2.) feel a connection
3.) quickly leave dw/dh
4.) ask other person if they're interested
5.) get rejected and have nothing/ have affair

I don't see how people are expected to not commence some sort of 'pre-affair' before leaving their husband/wife. My friend whose dh left her recently said that she was horrified he hadn't tried to make it work with her after he realised that he had feelings for OW. By then surely it's too late?
I don't think people who cheat are terrible people as no one can predict who you're going to meet and how you would feel if you found a strong connection with someone else whilst you're in a serious relationship.

I'm not sure why some has-been American comedian is constantly quoted as though he had some deep insights into human nature!

How many 'alpha' male are there though? By definition they are a minority

Not really, you can find them in every walk of life but yes, the term “alpha” only applies to those who are more ambitious and determined than the majority.

Everyone has the ability to cheat, life is messy relationships overlap.But with serial cheaters I often think there is more going on. Insecurity, pathological selfishness, whatever. For people who repeatedly cheat and leave, the question should be not why can they not help having affairs but why can't they be single?

You can’t help who you fall for however.... generally there are circumstances that would lead to say work colleagues getting it on. Over familiarity, boundary crossing between colleagues then friends then more... keeping at touch at work but messaging out of work etc there’s no need. The connection is usually pursued and doesn’t ‘just happen’.

There are boundaries within a relationship whereby some people teeter over. This is when it becomes dangerous territory.

If someone does start having feelings for another person that’s the point they should tell their partner at the very latest. To get to that ‘place’ in the first place IMO they were already crossing the line and having an emotional affair.

The worst sort of people try to have both their partner and the other person. Then there are the ones that have the affair, then when it doesn’t go anywhere they crawl back to their partner and pretend it didn’t happen.

If you’re not happy in your relationship just end it. Let the partner have the chance of meeting someone else. Don’t mess about behind their back.

I agree you can’t help how you feel, I know you can’t help who you fall in love with but saying that there are steps you can take to make sure you don’t fuck over your current partner. I’ve always said to my DP if you find someone else just tell me, don’t have an affair, don’t cheat on me just tell me you’ve found someone else as I would find it easier to deal with. At the end of the day your only human and you can’t help how you feel but you can control how you handle it.

I think a bit might come down to the idea that if the opportunity to cheat comes along then men are more likely to take it.

I think this may also be wired by nature. I remember watching a programme about a woman transitioning into a man. She said that she started noticing “bubs all around” when she started the hormone treatment that she had never noticed/pay attention before, which can be linked to a deeper hormone induced state where your main function is to mate.

One of my friends once mentioned that if any man looks intensively at a woman, the first reaction of a woman is to check there is nothing wrong with her clothes, while if a massively attractive woman was glancing at something behind the least attractive man in the planet, the man would think she wanted sex with him.

I admit I think she has a point, the amount of men who assume a woman is sexually interested on them when she is just being friendly is staggering.

I don’t necessarily think the alph male is the most successful

I think it’s more about self assurance and confidence - but that often follows success

She said that she started noticing “bubs all around” when she started the hormone treatment that she had never noticed/pay attention before, which can be linked to a deeper hormone induced state where your main function is to mate.

Or it could be wanting to be seen to adhere to the stereotypical behaviour patterns of the sex you want to 'transition' to.

Bollox.

You're committed.
You feel a connection with someone else. You rip that feeling out of your heart and mind and keep as far from them as you can.
All is well.

You just need to look at teenage boy’s behaviours to realise it is not just adapting to a stereotypical gender conception. They may not act on their sexual urges but there is no denial that when sexual hormones hit off in teenage, masturbation often appears.

We are pretty much ruled by hormones. Look at all the people talking about “loosing the spark”, “not feeling the spark”, “did/didn’t click” even into old age!

... the trick however, to survive within a community is to ensure your head rules over your hormones at least most of the times.

Alpha male doesn't have much to do with it other than the confidence to approach more women.

Posters keep talking about connections. I don't think men see it that way. They see a woman they think is attractive they want to fuck. Simple as that. That's the only connection.

Given the opportunity, most men will cheat just to have some strange.

If people put as much effort into their marriages as to having an affair they might find the marriage isn't as bad as they thought. Meeting daytime, overnight hotels, building anticipation, treating with respect, appreciation, acceptance of the other without criticism, making an effort to look good, doing different things that are none routine and making time for each other. Do all this with your partner and you you might find you don't fall for someone else.

It's very easy to sit in judgement based upon one's own morals. Nothing is as black and white as people like to imagine. Wouldn't that be an easy world to navigate. In some cultures, monogamy is not the norm. I don't think anyone at the alter ever intends to cheat further on down the line but here are the problems IMHO:

People change over time. They may end up more as co-tenants, or good friends in a marriage, rather than sexual partners. They have a need for physical intimacy but not within their marriage. They end up looking elsewhere to satisfy this need, rightly or wrongly. People don't always want to throw away years of shared experiences and companionship and love for sexual freedom - one does not automatically eliminate the other. What if one partner decides they don't want sex with the other? Where does that leave the other person? Perhaps splitting up is not on the cards, or isn't wanted by either for the good of the family.

You can love, and desire, more than one person at once, in equal measure.

Human nature does not obey the civilised rules we would always like it to. We are programmed for two things - self-preservation and procreation. Affairs happen because human nature is stronger than the thin veneer of Western moralising that covers it.

Whilst marriage suits some people, it doesn't work for others. It takes a strong person to admit, from a young age that marriage is not their cup of tea and to resist the trappings of expectation from relatives/friends/society as a whole to get married, settle down, have children...……..and then live happily ever after.

Of course, most people don't want to be the villain who ends up cheating. But perhaps if modern society was a bit more accepting and transparent about human vulnerability and human conditioning, we would be able to navigate such tricky issues with more confidence and acceptance.

You can love, and desire, more than one person at once, in equal measure.

Perhaps, but if that's how you feel, why get married? Or if you find yourself feeling that way years into your marriage, at least have the courtesy to let your partner know, as chances are they didn't sign up for a 'shared' marriage. And if your partner is unhappy with the arrangement, be prepared to either seek a divorce or forego your extra-marital activities.

Whilst marriage suits some people, it doesn't work for others.

You act as though men and women were somehow forced to get married against their will. We're not. I know that marriage isn't for me. So I didn't get married. Others have the same choices. But all choices have consequences.

Agree entirely, Watershed1. It doesn't negate that having an affair isn't a good thing but what you've said does articulately pinpoint the reasons why some marriages coast along, usually with one espoused partner reluctant to acknowledge that things in the relationship are going adrift.

It's much easier to pretend that everything's just as it was - and then be blindsided if and when the relationship fails.

I think there are more affairs going on, undiscovered, than anybody knows. Marriages are not easy to leave when there is familial responsibility and expectation and for some, the best option is discretion.

Where has this idea come from that people who have affairs all want to leave their spouses? That’s not my experience of affairs at all (as an onlooker) - people seem to carry on until they’re caught, then dump the affair partner, not their wife, and they spend the next few years trying to patch things up. How does that fit into your theory?

I agree Watershed1

Nit sure about the desire - that initial desire that we feel for someone changes over time. It’s still powerful but the same I’m not so sure as that is what drives many affairs

Read the relationships board ChristmasCracker, it happens a lot. More so in real life. Marriages break up and quite often there is somebody else involved. Most people I know of, have moved on, whether it was with the affair partner or not. Whether they were 'forced to' or not, that is the general outlook from my perspective.

You're speaking from your experience, I'm speaking from mine. It's only really on MN that so much is talked of 'patching things up'. Obviously, that's just a small sample of the relevant population so it can't really be extrapolated into wider society.

IcedPurple - Of course, we could all ask the question "why get married then?" to those people who do so despite not being sure whether it's for them or not. The point I made in my previous post was that, for most couples, marriage is the expected route into "family life." I think a lot of people who shouldn't get married in the first place do so because of the pressure put upon them to conform. It takes a strong person to go against the conventional norm.

I would also add, that most people don't always know how they're going to feel, years on down the line so at the point of marriage, I'm sure that they have only the best intentions. People change, and grow, and the rigidity of marriage doesn't allow for this - nor does it acknowledge, in any way, the vulnerability and fluidity of human nature.

One thing that I found really interesting after I split with ExH was to see so many of my friends, who I thought were in happy marriages, opening up to me talking about how miserable their lives were.

A lot of people stay in bad relationships because they are afraid of change, but if they can see a chance out in realising the grass is not always not-greener out there, sometimes they find the courage to leave.

Before I divorced I used to think of splits as marriage failures, something wrong with the people, even choosing badly (massive shame on me). Now that I can see from both side of the fence, I can categorically claim that divorce is the domain of the brave. Much easier to stay with an unsatisfying partner than leave, even when that is ruining your life. I suppose this apply to cheaters and cheated upon, if you had a little bit more courage/hope in life you would put an end to that unhappy relationship and move on.

I think a lot of people who shouldn't get married in the first place do so because of the pressure put upon them to conform

This isn't the 1950s. Many people don't get married - they either remain single, have a series of short relationships or even have families and committed relationships without getting married. I'm not seeing this massive 'pressure to conform'.

People change, and grow, and the rigidity of marriage doesn't allow for this - nor does it acknowledge, in any way, the vulnerability and fluidity of human nature.

"Marriage" is an abstract institution which is entered into voluntarily and doesn't force anything on anyone. However, if someone enters marriage on the expectation of monogamy - as the vast majority do - then it's only fair that if one partners decides that he/she no longer wants to remain monogamous, they must be honest with their husband/wife and let them know, thus giving their spouse the option to either stay married on those terms or seek a divorce. Whining about how marriage doesn't let you have your cake and eat it sounds juvenile to me.

Ok, so, while I kind of get what you’re saying-the person having the affair wants to make sure they haven’t thrown everything away on a whim-that’s inherently very selfish, isn’t it? Are you suggesting that’s ok? Because I’ve been the partner that’s been on the receiving end of that attitude, and it’s really shit. And of course, along with that comes the lies, the gaslighting, the complete lack of respect for the current partner....so, however much someone feels they couldn’t help falling in love with someone else, they CAN help their behaviour, and the level of respect they choose to show to their current partner.

I do find these discussions interesting as there are always two camps; cheating is bad, don’t do it, leave your current partner and then and only then explore other options. And then the people who recognise the shades of grey. I think real life is shades of grey and it’s important to recognise that often people can’t just leave.

My situation is such that we simply couldn’t afford to live apart. We do not have access to funds that would enable us to buy or rent a second property. We are unhappy but we also think that to act on that unhappiness would involve such upheaval that we don’t think it’s worth it.

I became close to someone at work which hasn’t gone beyond a kiss because both he and I decided we didn’t have the stomach for it. I kind of needed to start cheating to discover I didn’t actually want to cheat and that the grass isn’t greener. I discussed this with DH who appreciates why I did what I did and while I wouldn’t say he doesn’t mind he certainly doesn’t want to rip apart our family life for it. So I effectively cheated but then didn’t and we discussed it and the fact that I’m not going to take it further but I am going to still see the other person on an occasional basis for a night out.

Complicated? Yes, very. But I think it demonstrates that it’s not always black and white, there are degrees of cheating, back stories you may not know and everyone’s situation is so very different.

It's horrible that in a modern, civilised society, people can't actually afford to get divorced when they would both be happier for it!