If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

I moved my children because one was being bullied. I don’t think the teaching is that much better, but the cohort is very different. Every child there is motivated to learn, there are few behavioural issues - teachers teach, not crowd control. They have lots of time for extra curricular work simply because they do the core syllabus quite quickly. And smaller classes are a benefit - they aren’t that much smaller, but enough to make a difference. Happy, supported teachers teaching bright, well behaved kids.

my son moved from the local comp to private this year (year 9)
academically he was performing well but socially and MH wise he was struggling and becoming an anxious nihilistic, self harming shadow of himself.
Now his academic performance is as good/ a bit better, but his self confidence and participation in subjects such as drama and his contribution in class has been transformational, and so his outlook is much improved as he is learning how to present himself to show the best and individual side of himself.
Its not all about the grades

By the way I really don't think the teaching is at a higher level in private from what I've seen. I don't think that's it at all.

I disagree.

DH has a friend who is a teacher in a private school. She said she is under HUGE pressure for her class to achieve excellent results. If her class/subject results are not good enough, she could lose her job. Therefore, she goes the extra mile all the time.

I think parents expect, rightly or wrongly, that in grammar/private schools there'll be less behavioural issues, less social issues, smaller class sizes, better resources etc.

I teach kids who will get all 9s in their GCSE. I work in a rough school in a deprived areas. If these children were to go to a private school, whilst I don’t believe the quality of the teacher would change, I do think:

1. there would be less behavioural issues, meaning more time to learn

2. greater access to extra curricular activities.

3. greater options for academic learning available. We offer standard GCSEs but private schools will offer subjects such as Law, Psychology etc. Whilst normal comps can, it’s not something our school funding for.

4. less crime, and fear within their social circles. Drugs, and knives are big issues in our school. In particular drugs where many of our pupils come into school high on drugs their own parents have provided. Although I’m not naively stating private schools etc don’t have these issues, I don’t believe they have them to the extent we do.

You're right, OP, although it does partly depend on the nature of the individual child. You might get a bright kid who's also a really studious, determined hard-grafter who will get the absolute top grades in spite of their crap school. But most kids' grades will be affected by being in a bad school.

@hibiscuswater Yes but in a higher performing school your DD would have probably got better grades.

She got all A or A* grades, how much more could I have asked?!

In comprehensives they have streaming and the pupils end up with other academic children like them in the top sets so they all have the same work ethos together. My DCs school has 8 ability sets.

But Patti, that's all teachers really. Expectations are based on the child's targets anyway. Also perhaps she's working harder but that doesn't necessarily mean she's an expert in her field. Ive seen plenty of bog standard average ps teachers and some who can't even spell.

For my middle kid he enjoys the challenge of being with kids who might beat him in tests and exams. At primary school he was the top of the class and they never challenged him, so he was bored.

I mean he still is top of his grammar school class but he has to work his arse off to stay there and that keeps him trying.

I went to a fairly crappy school with a problem with fighting, drugs etc. I came out with A in everything apart from French as I’m naturally academic and I revised. School was my safe place.

I’m naturally academic, I’m also naturally fairly confident so could generally perform well at school without additional intervention, a need for peace and quiet etc.

My older brother was very shy, ‘nervy’ and really struggled academically, the school did not suit him at all.

My son goes to a state primary school, he will likely go to a public secondary school. He has additional needs, he’s adopted, had a physical disability and he is hearing impaired. Some schools wouldn’t have the resources to adequately support him. I went through secondary school seeing fights, drug dealing and even a stabbing, I don’t want my son to have to witness anything like that.

There is very little competition for the really “bright” to get into a super selective. The competition is for those who aren’t quite as intelligent. I think results probably vary very little between an ok comp, ok public, and ok grammar for the “bright”. If you’re asking WHY those with very bright children choose super selective, in my case I hoped that it would be easier socially.

To a certain extent it's true. I was bright with supportive parents and went to a secondary which went downhill over time. TBH, the early years before we were settled were pretty frustrating. But I did well at me exams. But it was crap to have to pretend not to be interested in my work and I had to be stubborn to stick to it. I can see some people wouldn't have. On the other hand I mixed with different types of people and had a more balanced education.

I think the teaching is far far better in my sons private school, because they are not so constrained by teaching to a set curriculem so can make the lessons interesting. They have time for discussion, and they have time to head off at a tangent and discuss things in more detail if the kids wish to do so.

But that doesnt mean that the teachers themselves are better teachers, it means that the small class sizes and a bunch of well behaved kids who are eager to learn doesnt involve so much sheparding and settling down - so, so much time was spent trying to control bad behaviour - even in the top classes of an 'outstanding' comprehensive, that they were always rushed trying to get their lesson plan out there.

Also the kids didnt care. They didnt care if they were told off or sent out. They were more concerned with looking cool in front of their mates and wisecracking.

At his new school they REALLY dont want to disappoint the headmaster - he can be quite scary and serious, but is very well respected and liked by the children. They WANT to please him and he gives alot of positive comments to them all and celebrates their achievements. Thats just not really possible when you may have 2000 pupils

I sent my dd to Grammar so that she didn't have to put up with as many kids that have no interest in achieving. I hoped that the children from the grammar were better behaved, had better parental support and the teacher's could focus more on teaching. I think it was the right move. The school's not perfect and I'm not under any illusion about the quality of teaching, but the police aren't up there very week like they are at the comp- so that's one advantage!

YANBU
My entire school education was like this. It was incredibly depressing. I spent the summer term (ie end of year) in a mixed reception / yr1 group then moved areas. The new school would not move me up a year into yr1. Going into the beginning of a reception class was mind numbingly boring and I was terribly unhappy both at home and at school. Teaching was mediocre and I ended up failing my 12+ as I lost all faith in my ability. From there I went to a crap / failing secondary modern. Lots of smoking and fights, the latter being a spectator sport. Kicking someone’s head in literally meant getting someone on the ground and kicking their head very hard. I did not do well. The gaps in my knowledge are embarrassing.

Had we not moved, I’m sure my life would have been very different. I spent my life reading and rereading the 30 or so books in my possession. Ergo I couldn’t even get the education at home - or in a library. I didn’t know I was allowed in one by myself and didn’t know how to use one either. I know that sounds totally bizarre to admit as an adult.

There are so many like me, people, who failed to reach their potential. I did end up with a university education thank goodness. I appreciate I am not exceptionally bright, just above average but am wondering what I could have achieved with tip top public school education.

I went to a grammar and my brother went to a comprehensive school by choice as he wanted to stay with friends. We're of similar intelligence. On paper, both of us were top performers at our schools but the difference is that our schools had very different standards for what doing well and excelling were.

At his school the government's standard of 5 C-grade GCSEs including English and Maths was good. A student getting B's across all their subjects like him wasn't pushed, and they didn't really raise expectations above that. At my school they only shouted about the pupils getting 11 A*s or a mark that was top 5 in the country- B grades were literally the minimum we were expected to attain.

This is purely anecdotal, but I always think why would people pay for private schools or 11+ tuition if it weren't the case?!

Its all about the odds, It's technically possible to do really well and thrive but it's not probable.

Being mediocre but getting a great education and loads of social connections is a more likely way to become a government minister...

I got 16 gcses at johnnny nobody school (that one with the pregnancies)no my mum wasnt part of pta due to rent needing to be paid.

Vs I went to Eton feeder school,, Oh you don't want to hear about my exams just do I know Tarquin? yeah my mum, insisted i know him

anyone pretending they don't understand it is poor or so rich they dont exist

this is why

Teaching is stricter in my sons school....no comprehensive would get away with it.
Class matters

Speaking as a teacher, I’d say one of the top reasons for parents wanting to send their children to good schools (bar the amazing extra-curricular activities) is with whom they’ll associate. Not so great schools have not so great kids. Even in my very high performing school, there have been ‘characters’. In the local private school, however, there have been issues with drugs, as well as an absolutely hopeless teacher. His students were going off to a tutor.

Numbers in private schools are very different: bottom sets in a state school might have 30 kids, in one private local school, there are 4 in bottom set.

learning disdain for her less bright peers

Jesus Christ, seriously?? She sounds delightful.

DH has a friend who is a teacher in a private school. She said she is under HUGE pressure for her class to achieve excellent results. If her class/subject results are not good enough, she could lose her job.
It is exactly the same in the state sector. Many, many schools have half termly progress meetings about pupils to pick up any concerns about underperforming pupils.
Therefore, she goes the extra mile all the time. That's a rather blinkered comment. Many, many state school teachers also go the extra mile all of the time. Have you seen the research about the hours teachers put in? And for state school teachers working in areas with significant socio-economic challenges they will be doing a great deal more for the pupils than simply teaching. Kate Clanchy's book "Some Kids I Taught and What They Taught Me" gives a good picture of the realities of life in some schools.

Jesus. This is a very depressing thread.

I sent my dd to Grammar so that she didn't have to put up with as many kids that have no interest in achieving
Meaning what? only grammar school kids dont want to struggle?
Rich kid mum dying of cancer
upper class kid still isolated

What are you saying here?

The days of not being judged for having kids you fuck off immediately in case they end up poor are over

A huge amount of tutoring goes on in some areas. The headline results of some comprehensive schools are not always solely attributable to the school.

It's not just about intelligence. School is an inherently middle-class world run according to middle-class values of organisation, discipline and deferred gratification.

If you come from a world of precarious economics, you exist by improvisation, spontenaity and immediate gratification. Try this in class and you will be seen as a trouble-maker.