If bright children do well wherever they go, why is everyone so desperate to get their children into the highest performing grammars/private schools?

[chuckb4ss]

I don't believe that if you put a child in a poorly performing comprehensive school that requires improvement, that they would come out with the exact same A level grades that they would if they had attended one of the top private/grammar schools. (Not saying that A levels are the be all and end all, that's a separate discussion).

I hear all the time that if your child is naturally bright, they will do well wherever they go. If that is the case, then why the competition to get children into the best performing schools?

I chose a grammar for ds as he is very bright but lazy. I wanted him to be in an environment where grade 7’s and 8’s are expected, not the exception. I was also concerned about the behaviour at our local schools. Probably am being a snob but it was what I felt best for him.

@hibiscuswater

Yes but in a higher performing school your DD would have probably got better grades.

In my local underperforming secondary modern. The kids in top set maths will get grades from 4-8 (no one has got a 9 recently) and only one student per two or three years getting an 8. That means that clearly a lot of teaching time is spent on stuff that is simple for bright students. It also means less chance to be given stretch material and less chance to collaborate and be challenged with students of a similar intellectual level. A very bright student could still get a 9 (since GCSEs and even A-levels aren't very hard for very bright students who work hard) by learning independently but they would have certainly missed out compared to a student who was at a top private or grammar.

A genuine comprehensive school would be fine for 95% of students who would have enough other students to challenge them but not in a school in which you've effectively selected out most of the top30% ability levels.

Sorry @Purpleartichoke, did I read correctly that your daughter is ‘learning disdain for her less bright peers’???

I was a bright kid. I went to a very average comprehensive, with zero extra curricular, behaviour problems, shitty resources and poor standards of teaching.

My school was actually in a very affluent area, surrounded by top private schools. I remember visiting one once as a family member worked there (in maintenance). The facilities were just out of this world, it would have been such a lovely environment to learn in.

So personally, I think I would have thrived, both academically and socially if I had been at a better school.

Don't get me wrong, I did ok. But I was capable of so much more. The opportunities just weren't there.

Because our poor state education system is a postcode lottery and struggling. I did well in a bad comp, but I think a few things about this.

1. I’ve done pretty well for myself but I feel I could have done more, gone further but my school didn’t push me or give me any career guidance
2. I was self motivated so I pulled myself up. I look at my son who is sooooo clever but can’t be arsed and I know he would be failed by the same sort of school I attended.
3. Getting on in life these days is about so much more than GCSE results. Private schools offer a million and one extra curricular options and that’s really what splits the bright kids when it comes to Uni admission or job interviews.
4. Sadly our state schools are being let down by our Government, hemorrhaging great teachers who are burned out and failing to meet students needs. I wish it wasn’t so. But I can understand why people feel the need to go Private.

Because there is an enormous difference between doing well, and doing as well as you could.

I went to a rough school. DH private. Our school days sound alien to each other. His sounds a genuinely pleasant experience, full of opportunity for sport, music and the generally vibe and message of the place- lots of Oxbridge graduates.

My school days were survival. You risk bullying by standing out as bright or even just doing your homework. The message was not inspiration, we were often told we would amount to nothing. Easy to fall in with a bad crowd. I did ok. Having attended form college and university, I do much better in a group where everyone is motivated to learn. I push myself more.

You can coast and still be top of the class in a bad school.

I think the confidence and ( and maybe sense of entitlement) private school brings makes a big difference too.

A shit subject teacher at A level is an utter hindrance; doesn’t matter how good or bad the overall school is. Wiley kids and their parents are often selective in choosing A levels depending on the competence of the teacher. It’s hard to quickly ditch poor performing teachers in the state sector whereas private sector can quickly get rid of them.

Well it seems to be more about socialisation than grades. Grades aren’t particularly important when your child is bright anyway.

Anecdotal, but I went to a dire school. Teachers on long term sick leave and no cover arranged: A level lessons were sitting unsupervised with text books. Another teacher was coming up for retirement and spent lessons discussing her dates with her new man. Did 1 year of A level and got D in Maths. Although I did well in English, my teacher scoffed when I said I wanted to try for Oxbridge.

Moved schools to one with excellent teaching and a “can do” attitude. Got all As at A level, and went to Oxbridge. The difference in teaching and attitude was a revelation to me.

People want their children to be the best they can possible be, not just do ok, or ‘well’ in relation to the ones that don’t achieve highly. I’d say it’s more about wanting your children to be in an environment where academic achievement is expected and normalised, rather than being surrounded by peers who don’t value education, or in an environment where they could be easily led into undesirable behaviour.

This.

A teacher friend once told me the worst thing a child can be in school is in the middle. The cleverer ones will be ok (hopefully), the ones at the other end of the scale get additional time and help and the ones in the middle are left to their own devices as long as they are not interrupting the class.

cremebrule - I am older than you, so it may not still be possible, but I dropped a grade at A-level and was still accepted at Cambridge BECAUSE I had been to a crappy comprehensive - they would not have accepted the same grades from someone who had had every educational opportunity at a grammar or private school.

Most of the schools round here are excellent, great pastoral care, exceptionally good results, bright kids, invested parents.

I don't need a grammer or a private.

If your child is bright, they WILL achieve at a good school.

I went to a poor comprehensive. I got bullied relentlessly for achieving well academically, for 5 years.

The school did what they could about the bullying, but they could not make the pupils accept me as a friend so i left with none.

I've deliberately moved to a grammar school area. I know bullying exists everywhere but you have a better chance of avoiding it if you dont stick out like a sore thumb.

Should say that both schools were private.

Because it's about so much more than just grades.

Because it may well be true but that’s not certain Enough for me, my dc aren’t something I want to use as a social experiment.
If it isn’t the case it’s not like I can rewind back 4:years when they don’t get the GCSE results I think they are capable of.
There are always examples of bright children doing well at State/badly at Private but as a general rule I believe a bright child at Private or Grammar will probably achieve more than one at State.

Ps. I achieved very well at the comprehensive, went on to a top university & now in a well paid job. It's not the academic achievement side that matters for me, it's the social side.

Two differences I've noticed between private and state. State there is peer pressure to not be high achieving academically. If you try hard you are not on the good side of the bullies. Private there's peer pressure to do well. State there is little opportunity for confidence building ie. Talking in front of people, presenting etc. Most of the children are vastly uncomfortable with it. Private there's a lot more of it from a very young age, self belief is much more in evidence. Whether these things come from the school environment or the home lives it's hard to say but they do seem to both revolve around self worth and self belief.

She is still learning disdain for her less bright peers

I hope this is a typo.
If not, I hope you’re pulling her out of a school that gives her such an awful attitude.

By the way I really don't think the teaching is at a higher level in private from what I've seen. I don't think that's it at all.

I'm going to throw in an alternative viewpoint - I'm very academic, went to a very academic school and hated it. It was more socially selective than anything - most kids got tutored to pass the 11+ so while it was full of clever people, they were also very posh, rich and stuck up. Bullying was rife and you got picked on for not having a Jack Wills hoody. It was expected everyone goes to a top uni and works in a corporate office, which I did. I hated my time at school and also hate the career I ended up in. I now want to move into something that you need literally 0 qualifications for.

I'd never met a builder, plumber, electrician, gardener, hairdresser in a friendship capacity - only if my parents hired them for a job. Actually the first builder I met who we hadn't hired was at the age of 23. Careers like that were sneered at at my school, and were for "thick" people. Yet I want to do a practical job of this ilk and only wish I'd had a role model/school tell me that these were also options, not just banking/law/medicine!

Yes, doing well academically is important even for things like being numerate, working out mortgages/APRs, being able to read a newspaper and not believe everything you read. But I think so many of these grammar schools are pushing students towards a life they might not even want for themselves, without even letting them consider other options. I wish I'd gone to a normal comprehensive school so I could have met a variety of people and not live in a bubble. I felt so guilty even wanting to quit corporate life and get a practical career because it had always been drummed into me at school that people like us don't do that.

I've been at schools where my talent as a young child was treated like something to be taken out of me. I also went places where talent was cultivated.

I have very little doubt, given the outcomes of many of my classmates from the former situation, that I would have gone nowhere in life if I'd gone there until graduation. I'm 35, my children are young. My two best friends from that school are grandmothers now, with several grandchildren apiece. The difference in our lives is shocking and makes it feel a bit awkward to post about things in my own life to social media, etc., when I know they might read it.

All because my parents got out before that town swallowed me up the way it swallowed up all its other bright, promising girls.

I was desperate for one of mine to go to grammar because the alternatives weren't great in terms of well anything really. High bullying, not dealing with disruptive behaviour, violent fights, knives etc.
The Grammar isn't scared to deal with issues and will remove disruptive students very quickly from the class. The extracurricular activities are fantastic and make access a lot easier than going out of school.
The teachers move up the years with them, and it was these little things along with smaller class sizes that veered us to grammar.

I went to a terrible secondary school in special measures. It was awful, I was picked on for being clever and called a swot despite, ironically, never needing to study to be top of the year. I was also used by some teachers as a TA, constantly asked to explain things to less able students. In a way it was good because it taught me patience, and understanding that just because something was obvious to me it wasn't to everyone and needed to be broken down into steps. In more ways it was bad, because I was miserable.

I'd not hesitate to send DS to a selective school because of the awful time I had.